sprit vs mastery

90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
04/29/2012 11:45 PMPosted by Gamex


Gamex, your butthurt is showing, honey.


lol, honey?

So ok, what exactly do I get if I show how haste is better in certain situations?

Will you retract the crap you've said about me in this thread if i explain it in a clear, logical manner backing up my math?


So wait. You think that because in theoretical situations, (also qualified as "what-if" situations) means that haste is better?

Gamex. Gamex....
Gamex...............

Just because maybe sometimes that .01 sec off regrowth saved someone's life one time doesn't mean that the overall value of haste is better. Mastery is sooooo byfar in so many ways better upon reaching 2005 haste. I'm seriously disappointed in your thought process at the moment.

I think the amount of time you haven't been playing your druid as your main has been making you rusty on the class or something... Your logic is fallible.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9605


lol, honey?

So ok, what exactly do I get if I show how haste is better in certain situations?

Will you retract the crap you've said about me in this thread if i explain it in a clear, logical manner backing up my math?


So wait. You think that because in theoretical situations, (also qualified as "what-if" situations) means that haste is better?

Gamex. Gamex....
Gamex...............

Just because maybe sometimes that .01 sec off regrowth saved someone's life one time doesn't mean that the overall value of haste is better. Mastery is sooooo byfar in so many ways better upon reaching 2005 haste. I'm seriously disappointed in your thought process at the moment.

I think the amount of time you haven't been playing your druid as your main has been making you rusty on the class or something... Your logic is fallible.


So have you noticed I keep talking about how haste affects hots?... or do you keep wanting to just talk about regrowth because it's whats fun for you?
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90 Undead Priest
HC
10320
she's gone to bed, im afraid. although im genuinely curious to hear what you have to say about haste outside of breakpoints and why you think it outweighs mastery.

as far as i know, haste (outside of breakpoints) does 3 things:
-reduces GCD (minus rejuv)
-reduces cast times
-makes hots tick faster

in my mind i cannot see how any of these things outweighs raw healing power

The faster GCD would apply for wild growth, which has a cd, and lifebloom, which you generally refresh with other spells anyway. Stacking lifebloom is the only real thing i could see extra haste being good for, as it is a hassle to switch targets with it. As for refreshing it, the faster cast on regrowth/HT/nourish is a bonus, i suppose. However, 2005 is a lot of haste to begin with - its more than enough to have a comfortable GCD and cast times. If we were talking about 800 haste, i would understand wanting more.

Reducing cast times on regrowth/HT/nourish is also a decent plus, but lets be serious... the strength of the class comes from hots, not direct heals. To me, it seems like a bad idea to slightly buff the weaker aspect of your class while hurting the stronger aspect.

This last point is pretty interesting though.. having a hot ticking more quickly after the first application is pretty neat but... really does nothing significant in the long run. Youre losing efficiency and overall hps (which is fairly important) to gain the very small perk of having that hot tick sooner. While it does seem pretty nice, that faster tick is going to be smaller from the lack of mastery. And that lack of mastery is also going to hurt everything else you do. I just dont see it being worth it... if you need heals fast, thats what the other healers in your raid are for.

Im not trying to bash you, i really just dont understand
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90 Night Elf Druid
9605

You're defending the indefensible. But, sure, give me some solid math that explains why Haste outweighs Mastery after you have hit 2005 Haste.


I thought you'd never ask!!so let's just hit up 2005 haste, 15.7% right?

so let's go analyze haste then compare it with rough estimates.

takes ~128 haste for 1% haste
takes ~179 mastery for 1 mastery
since 179 mastery gives 1.25% healing, you can say ~143 mastery gives 1% healing.

At 2006 (15.66%) haste rejuve hits at 2.59 second intervals, so let's add 10% more haste to that for kicks. It increases at around 87% of haste% * 3, then -3 (to get comparison tick levels, just tested in game). This is approximate, and I literally just did this math from in game tonight. My ticks will now hit at ~2.33 second marks. My haste would be amplified further with raid buffs (as stated with the website fleurs provided on page 5).

So now let's think, 5 ticks per rejuve right? 5 times 2.33, my rejuve will end in 11.65 seconds with 5 ticks of 4000, so that's 20000 healing in 11.65 seconds.

So 20000heal/11.65s = 1716 healing per second for this rejuve. This is with equivalent haste rating.

Let's give 1280 mastery (8.94 rating, 11.17% stronger heal), with the 2.59 second intervals. I'll get ~4446 healing per tick. My rejuve now does 4446 every 2.59 seconds. 4446*5 is 22230 healing. 2.59*5 is 12.95 seconds. So, you'll now do 22230 healing over a 12.95 second duration of a hot.

So 22230heal/12.95s = 1716 healing per second for this rejuve. This is with equivalent mastery rating.


Let's not forget from fluers' linked site, haste actually benefits even more in a raid buffed environment, for the website explains that the 5% haste buff is not just + .05, but it's *1.05. He states this by saying "1.0714 x 1.05 = 1.125" in his discussion. Heroism anyone? ;P

Argument for mastery = the difference on GCD is not THAT significant, so technically every global they use, they're gonna get that 22230 healing for their efforts with almost the same exact time as the guy who fires with only 20000 healing. But mastery only wins once the rejuve hits the 12.95 second mark. Sure, if fights lasted forever, or if burn phases lasted forever, we'd get ourselves higher output on that mastery. Also, for spells like wild growth, per those ~7 seconds you'll get more healing once the FINAL tick of the spell ticks out of mastery, but haste will be ahead until that ~7th second mark. This also applies to Efflorescence.

Argument for haste = The healing gets out there faster, with shorter intervals and superior healing per second in a raid environment. Unless burn phases are lasting a great deal of time, and if you always have someone to hit with the spell, then you're always going to do more FASTER.

Also, remember all added ticks are ticks at the end. Considering the complete lack of control you have over the timing of your "last tick" of a rejuve, are we really going to hold such a high level of weight on it?Take your minds out of a dpser's head. Think about how healing works, rather than how damage just hits a boss. Think about how you rarely are ever going to 1 heal fights unless they're severely nerfed or incredibly unique. Think about how reaction timing affects healing in ALL ways, not just globals or cast times on heals, but on EVERYTHING in your toolset.

Instead of literally just going "well for this much mana, this rejuve overall will do ~22230 healing, whereas some dumbass with haste is only gonna do ~20000" and thinking this is the be all end all, think about what haste ACTUALLY does to your toolkit.

From this description, I hope it is clear that there are multiple situations where haste outweighs mastery, but this does not mean that mastery has NO place. In fights like H spine, one could argue the mastery style is better. Mana can be a problem on the fight, and technically mastery does provide more healing per mana spent. Also, you normally have a great deal of time to remove the healing debuff, but you need to make sure you have enough cooldowns to survive rolls as well. As long as the rolls are covered, mastery is likely superior in this situation.

A DPSer looks at the final tick of a spell being just as useful as the first, because that's a DPS's job. A healer though... things are now time sensitive. The quicker a heal hits, the more value it now holds. That value is immeasurable, for nobody can put a "math value" on it. Only a player can decide how much value it holds to them personally.

So, after all this, what is YOUR mastery uptime every fight? 100% surely? Because I did my equations based on you all being completely perfect healers with perfect uptime! ;)
Edited by Gamex on 4/30/2012 2:50 AM PDT
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85 Human Priest
1980
I am liking the spirit. 4.3 is like Lich King all over again. Spamming flash heal, not give a f-bomb.

I am dpsing 6k and spamming flash in teh twilights and not running out of mana. Yeah lazy.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
lol

I don't really have time right now to type a lengthy response, but I'm gonna have a field day later.
Edited by Anarri on 4/30/2012 4:27 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
17860
I agree with Gamex, stacking Haste above 2005 completely makes sense, even for Rejuve, especially with raid buffs. It makes even more sense if you maxed out Gift of the Earthmother and/or if you have issues with heal sniping by other members of your team. I am far too lazy to math it out now, but if you stack Haste to the point where you are just under the next tick breakpoint, you would want to slightly change your playstyle where you are apparently clipping your HoTs. This would actually increase your HPS in that you would be squeezing in extra Rejuves, and you would need the extra Spirit to support that. In other words, Haste wouldn't be building an extra tick, but building an overall faster Rejuve.

With GotE giving you an extra 15% up front, it is completely viable for progression fights.
Again, although a high Spirit/high Haste build isn't appropriate for me, my raid comp, or the types of fights we are doing, claiming it is bad in general is rather silly, in my opinion. Since the vast majority of resto druids are in my situation or lower, it does make sense to have the general rule be "stack haste to 2005, then stack mastery while dumping spirit" is fine, but like everything in life, the exceptions to rules are more interesting than the rules themselves.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
HC
9325
Gamex Rant


So basically what you're saying is your raid wastes mana by snipe healing eachother?

Then sure, haste + spirit is best. Gotta snipe and waste all them heals to look good for your friends.
If you have to take this route, drop one of your healers. You're running too many.

I'm not trying to throw fists at you like the rest of them, but your effective healing is going to be the same, whether you have 10% more haste or not. If you want to consider healing done, effective healing, and overhealing, then mastery has its strengths because if you're EVEN USING REJUV, its most likely because its beneficial at the time, so it will get its use.

In general, a rdruids job is to blanket the raid and combat incoming damage, reforging for spirit, which is completely useless if you dont NEED it, is pretty dense. If you're ending fights with full mana, trade off spirit for other stats. Haste or Mastery (whatever your sniping needs may be).

In terms of effective healing, regardless of how much haste you use, you still only get so many ticks for a certain amount. The chances of overhealing vs healing are not important if your raid isn't allocating heals properly. Hots were never meant to be used for a prime healing spell, just a blanket. Mastery makes that blanketing stronger and devalues haste because if you're not overhealing then someone else will be in high health situations.

I haven't been keeping up with this thread religiously, but spirit is and always has been a to-comfort/skill-level (less being more. raid accounted in this skill).

I can see the argument where haste is "better" once you've outgeared the content and are running too many healers since you wanna look like you're good.

But for progression, effective healing, and smart playing go hand in hand, and haste past the breakpoint isn't going to outweigh smart playing.

This would actually increase your HPS in that you would be squeezing in extra Rejuves, and you would need the extra Spirit to support that. In other words, Haste wouldn't be building an extra tick, but building an overall faster Rejuve.


This is partially correct. Your rejuv will tick, and completely miss the last tick.

Breakpoints are met to have effective healing and to refresh as soon as they fall off. This makes mastery better all in all if your healers are working together as they should.

Not hitting a breakpoint by a small margain is silly and should be avoided because the first ticks are still a similar speed to the 'almost-breakpoint' haste level.
Its just wasting hot potentional. You're missing how hots work.

This entire argument is:

Spirit + Haste for people who play sloppy and want to justify it.

Haste to cap + Mastery for people who play intelligently and want to prove it.

Theres no other excuse for speeding up hots when it doesn't net more healing per hot, even if it may net that healing a fraction of time faster when you can get a base healing increase to those hots through mastery.

If I wanted rejuv's to go out, I'd prefer a base healing increase to the hots I placed there for a REASON. Not just blanketing the raid for lawls because people think thats what good rdruids do.

In a way, Gamex's approach isn't wrong, but its a pretty sloppy playstyle when viewed by someone who plays their class smart in a progression environment.

With GotE giving you an extra 15% up front, it is completely viable for progression fights.
Again, although a high Spirit/high Haste build isn't appropriate for me, my raid comp, or the types of fights we are doing, claiming it is bad in general is rather silly, in my opinion. Since the vast majority of resto druids are in my situation or lower, it does make sense to have the general rule be "stack haste to 2005, then stack mastery while dumping spirit" is fine, but like everything in life, the exceptions to rules are more interesting than the rules themselves.


I can only see spirit/haste being viable if you're a rejuv bot on a 25m team where they dont trust you to do anything other than that. Not pointing fingers, just stating my experience.
Edited by Eein on 4/30/2012 8:53 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
17860
...

This is partially correct. Your rejuv will tick, and completely miss the last tick.

Breakpoints are met to have effective healing and to refresh as soon as they fall off. This makes mastery better all in all if your healers are working together as they should.

Not hitting a breakpoint by a small margain is silly and should be avoided because the first ticks are still a similar speed to the 'almost-breakpoint' haste level.

Its just wasting hot potentional. You're missing how hots work.

No, you are missing how Rejuve works with GotE. It is completely viable to focus on the front end of Rejuve (and Regrowth, technically) rather than solely on the back end. Yes, it is an agreesive and snipey playstyle, and it isn't the way I play, but it is viable in progression.

It would be ideal if the healing team works flawlessly to avoid wasting my last tick or two of Rejuve, but I have yet to see it work out that way in practice.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
HC
9325
No, you are missing how Rejuve works with GotE. It is completely viable to focus on the front end of Rejuve (and Regrowth, technically) rather than solely on the back end


..

but GotE applies 15% of its periodic effect. Boosting haste to 'under-a-breakpoint' would diminish that value by 15% the value of that tick.

Haste shouldn't increase the value of a tick that isn't there.

Basically you'd be gimping yourself by holding back under the cap, since you heal more over time and for more up front.

EDIT:

DoT/HoT ticking tutorial:

| = tick

Right to left channel style castbar:
Below is a three tick haste cap.

[|----------|------------|-----------]

if you go under the cap:

[-----------|------------|-----------]

^^ this happens.

cool, you got 2 ticks instead of three and less initial healing from gote. (which actually is bad)

if you are closing on the next cap, this happens:
[-------|--------|--------|---------]

When you get the next tick, this happens:
[|------|--------|--------|---------]

Your ticks are microscopically slower if you wanna get close to a cap. adding a tiny bit of haste isn't going to make things tick that much better, and the most haste you get, makes haste even less valuable, because your ticks start to bunch so the ticking speed becomes less important. Not to mention you're wasting flat healing given by mastery. Its just a waste overall. Theres no arguing that.

The only way a heavy build would be viable is if you are clipping every rejuv at the end of its final tick based on your haste with a new rejuv + gote (with its bonus equalling a rejuv tick)

and even then, after you hit that breakpoint, mastery is that much better.

With current info (since gote is 15% of periodic healing), its at 7 ticks of rejuv. 6 is achieveable right under 4k haste without DI. This MIGHT be possible at the end of next expac if you ignore spirit and mastery.

this way casts look like this:
O=gote
(right to left)
[|------|--------|--------|---------O][|------|--------|--------|---------O]

having less/more haste than breakpoints will never be better than a base hot healing increase.

The chances of linking those hots without overhealing in a real world environment are not that likely.

The only thing i'm not sure on is if initial heal given by GoTE is affected by a harmony buffed rejuv. If it is, it makes mastery that much more useful.

TL;DR: If you can reach a haste threshold, it MAY be viable to just go for it. But until you can reach it, mastery is always better from throughput math without considering overhealing or player mistake. Considering both of those, mastery is probably better if you're not a snipe-healer.
Edited by Eein on 4/30/2012 9:37 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
9605
04/30/2012 08:38 AMPosted by Eein
Gamex Rant


So basically what you're saying is your raid wastes mana by snipe healing eachother?

Then sure, haste + spirit is best. Gotta snipe and waste all them heals to look good for your friends.


You can't just throw this concept out of the window so easily. You're assuming everyone has perfect reaction time and perfect playstyle, and that you're right because everyone is a perfect robot who heals perfectly with their teammates, calculating every rejuve to compliment their own heals in their head.

My argument is that this isn't how things ACTUALLY work in practice. People overheal, people underheal, people react differently, and they organize spell queues in different ways at different times.


This makes mastery better all in all if your healers are working together as they should.



Here's another concept: Which tick of your rejuve is most likely to have the highest overheal? My answer to that is that the last tick has the highest chance of becoming overheal when you're healing with other people in a real raid environment. This devalues mastery even more. Take into account that in general the best resto parses in the world have around 90% uptime of their mastery, because again, they aren't robots. On top of that, there are sometimes situations where it's smarter to just hit that next heal rather than using a nourish/regrowth/healingtouch to refresh your mastery.

Again, I feel haste has more of a place in healing than mastery, but I DO SEE how mastery has its value in various situations. Healing is not an exact science (this is why Anarri's concepts bug the crap out of me). It varies from person to person, raid to raid, encounter to encounter, and I argue that there is not a single person on earth who can truly work in perfect sync with the healers around them. You just can't time how someone else plays. You can get CLOSE, but you can't always be right. Haste pads this concept with having quicker ticks.

Instead of looking at the quicker tick as a negative(sniping?), we can look at it as a good thing that maybe it saved their !@# so that the shaman's greater healing wave gets to them... before they die. How do you put a value on the RNG of that situation when you consider healing with multiple people? My tick hit quicker, so therefore the room for error is padded. Preventing a death = all, and shiny numbers = I could care less.

A raid team of healers aren't robots. My teammates and I aren't going to perfectly plan out every single heal we do, and it's unreasonable to assume situations like that.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
HC
9325
You can't just throw this concept out of the window so easily. You're assuming everyone has perfect reaction time and perfect playstyle, and that you're right because everyone is a perfect robot who heals perfectly with their teammates, calculating every rejuve to compliment their own heals in their head.


I'm not assuming that. I'm assuming a mid to high progression raid team that meshes well together.

My argument is that this isn't how things ACTUALLY work in practice. People overheal, people underheal, people react differently, and they organize spell queues in different ways at different times.


Different in my experience. I've always seen incoming heals and assigned groups and overlaps.

Here's another concept: Which tick of your rejuve is most likely to have the highest overheal? My answer to that is that the last tick has the highest chance of becoming overheal when you're healing with other people in a real raid environment. This devalues mastery even more.


Depends if you're wasting rejuv's or not. The value of an extra tick going off 'maybe' is the same as getting that extra healing done in on initial ticks.
Actually it makes mastery more valuable, because ticks will heal for more off the bat, instead of wasting healing with a hasted tick that you'll never get to use. with the haste.

Mastery compliments haste breakpoints really well.. Unless you suck at harmony uptime. Then dont bother with mastery.

On top of that, there are sometimes situations where it's smarter to just hit that next heal rather than using a nourish/regrowth/healingtouch to refresh your mastery.


Who cares? just refresh it later. any hots casted within harmony are affected through their duration, whether harmony is up or not.

04/30/2012 09:53 AMPosted by Gamex
Instead of looking at the quicker tick as a negative(sniping?), we can look at it as a good thing that maybe it saved their !@# so that the shaman's greater healing wave gets to them... before they die.


Sniping is always a negative. By healing a target that another healer is already healing, and forcing them to overheal, you're just wasting time you could have been healing the person who was about to die. If theres any situations where a person needs their !@# to be saved, you can do one of three things. 1. Assign a healer/cd to counter that mechanic 2. Let all healers blast them. (if required) 3. Call them out for standing in crap.

04/30/2012 09:53 AMPosted by Gamex
Haste pads this concept with having quicker ticks.


so microscopically small that its hardly worth the non-added healing benefit. Definitely not worth more than actual added benefit of mastery.

04/30/2012 09:53 AMPosted by Gamex
Preventing a death = all, and shiny numbers = I could care less.

There hasn't been anything in this game recently that killed you that quickly and you didn't deserve it. Its either the players fault or the healers fault. One of the two was being dumb. Or both. Thats what death logs are for.
Haste might save someone if the stars align, but the chances are so slim with 3 healers, it would probably be something else besides that magic haste.

A raid team of healers aren't robots. My teammates and I aren't going to perfectly plan out every single heal we do, and it's unreasonable to assume situations like that.

But you can see when things are being healed.

If your raid team is blasting PoH over your Rejuvs in G1 causing them to clip 2 ticks and overheal when its light raid damage, then they are being stupid.

Period.

I've always been able to see rejuv's ticking and when PoH's are going off on other groups or assignments.

---

I wish to elaborate that i dont think haste is bad when focusing for breakpoints, especially at a high amount like 2k5 for WG/Efflo (both instants). Its just not that big of a deal when the majority of your spell usage is instant cast, and all the breakpoints you're trying to reach with haste (minus tranq) are instant cast spells.

I do, however, know that haste is worse than mastery especially when using haste to speed up initial ticks by a little under 1/x (fraction) of a cast. 'x' being the next breakpoint you are closest to. The more ticks you shove into 12s, the less of a point you have. at 5 or more ticks its not really going to make a difference. like it would from 4 to 5 tick breakpoint. Even then its barely a noticiable difference.
Edited by Eein on 4/30/2012 10:38 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
9605
Look, you can't deny that there is a use in quicker ticks, and that you also get quicker casts from it. We can sit here and try to argue how other healers react to it all day, and we can sit here and have you explain how you deal with the situation.

That's wonderful, but trying to act like you 100% of the time know exactly how every healer around you is going to react is just unreasonable.

It doesn't matter how many assignments you have, how you set up your groups, or how you react to other people's heals. Overhealing exists in every single raid. It CANNOT be avoided.

Look, we're getting into a pretty deep argument here. I personally feel the quicker tick of the "4000 heal" being .26, .52, .78, 1.04, and 1.4 seconds sooner than a "4400 heal" is better. You don't. That's ALL this has come down to. Let's agree that we both understand the concept, and that we just have different healing styles. I think it's great that we both make such efforts to work with the healers around us. It's clear we take different approaches and we assume different things about those situations, but the only thing I argue is that saying mastery is "100% of the time always better" is just a flawed statement.

If you have read everything I've said, and you still believe that mastery is always better than haste after breakpoints, then I guess I did not achieve my goal, and we just should be on our way.
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85 Draenei Priest
6725
I see where Haste could be better than Mastery in between breakpoints, but the situation where the value of Haste surpasses that of Mastery, is extremely rare to find.

Haste makes your DoTs tick faster, so let's analyze Rejuvenation specifically.

Using your example of the 2.33 seconds and 2.59 seconds in between each Rejuv tick, the only time Haste would surpass Mastery would be when someone's health would be heal-able for a certain duration. These time intervals would be 4.66 seconds to 5.17 seconds, 6.99 seconds to 7.76 seconds, and 9.32 seconds to 10.36 seconds.This time interval becomes larger with more Haste, but would reset once another breakpoint is reached. This duration would allow for the Haste stacking Druid to squeeze one extra tick of Rejuv in, that a Mastery stacking Druid would not.

Going onto Wild Growth, Lifebloom, and Efflorescence:

The ticks of Wild Growth, Lifebloom, and Efflorescence are already so frequent, that the time intervals would be microscopically small, and I honestly don't feel like mathing that out. Once again, the window of opportunity is next to impossible.

But Haste also reduces the GCD!

Rejuv is already at the GCD cap. You cast Wild Growth about every 8-ish seconds and Swiftmend every 15-ish seconds. Haste reduces the GCD by such a minimal amount per point, that aiming for more Haste specifically this purpose would, to be blunt, stupid.

Ruduced cast times....

Be honest with yourself. The only time you cast something, is either to refresh Lifebloom or to proc Nature's Grace.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9605
04/30/2012 10:54 AMPosted by Tiriél
Sorry, Gamex, but you haven't convinced me. You're basically making the case that Haste is better than Mastery because your fellow healers suck and you feel the need to snipe their heals. Like, I've read everything you said, and that's the only conclusion that I can come up with. You don't trust your fellow healers to do their jobs, so you're pouring on Haste to try to snipe their heals and look better on the meters.


I can't believe you really read "sniping" and don't realize that the same concept that provides "sniping" at high % of health also provides "saving" at low % health. You just like... read what you want to read. I just don't understand how you look at one little piece and just make this absolute thought in your mind that "THIS IS RIGHT AND IT AFFECTS NOTHING ELSE!"

It drives me insane to see you come to this conclusion without looking at the big picture. I think I'm going to go nuts reading these damn forums.
Edited by Gamex on 4/30/2012 11:05 AM PDT
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