RL vs healers

1 Goblin Hunter
0
My RL tends to be very critical to everyone in our raid when we mess up. He's brutally honest and very exact when it comes to screw ups, going over death logs and what not. While I expect and know him to be harsh when it comes to mistakes, and though I have raided fine with him knowing that for a long time now, I feel like some of the attitude/remarks he is making lately are crossing a line that I am not comfortable with.

Last raid we were wiping on farm content due to deaths which I know is understandably frustrating and frustrating for us, the healers as well. We had somebody healing who hadn't done the fight often as heals, and the RL was tanking which is not typical for us and takes much more dmg than our usual guy who tanks that fight. After another wipe he called us "scrub healers" in front of the whole raid, which I found insulting and humiliating to be called. I have been healing this group since DS launched practically, solid attendance and a loyal officer/recruiter and the person co-healing with me has been with us nearly as long and been just as reliable as me.

It's further angering that whenever anybody else messes up (and boy, do they) or does something that wipes us, they have never been called something like that. They have been criticized for low DPS or screwing up a mechanic but never to the point where they were hostilely called a "scrub" for the whole raid to hear.

I don't want to leave the guild or anything, I like the people but that night I felt close to breaking. I normally have a great relationship with my RL but once inside a raid and we start wiping on something, lately, I feel entirely different. That night I was in awe that I set aside 3 hours to do this raid. I honestly didn't feel like healing anymore, and I love to heal, I have 4 maxxed 85 healers. Ugh :(

We're supposed to be transferring as a guild soon too and I am going with. I know the RL has no intention of replacing me as a healer (Wtf right, since I'm a scrub?) but I feel like going DPS after this. I almost feel like issuing an ultimatum, speak of me like that again and I won't heal for you anymore. I don't want to cause drama though.

My RL is tough and will likely become defensive or something, all I would really like to illustrate to him is that what he said was hurtful, humiliating and discouraging above all. But he is very hard to get through to, I am a loss for how to phrase my complaint.
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85 Tauren Druid
9045
Hmm, it can be tricky. If it were him asking for advice about how to go about it, I'd suggest things like "How'd tankymctanktank die?" (The goal being to check the difference between healer screwup, spike damage from nonuse of CDs, standing in fire, etc. Tone when asking this can matter a LOT.) or "Is there something I can do to help us survive the transition?" (Similar thing, but keeping the focus on the speaker wanting to help, rather than blaming there not being enough heals).

Then again, I had some experiences back in vanilla with a group whose mentality was "throw more healers at it." Nah, we don't need to manage damage better, we just need more healers. We aren't gonna have people successfully move away when "you are the bomb!" we'll just stand in a line so they only take a few others with them when they ignore the mechanic. Rubbed me wrong. I prefer to try to determine what the issue ACTUALLY is (and sometimes it really is "we need more healing").
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90 Worgen Druid
16550
Unfortunately I feel like there has been a spreading mentality in the game that if something happens it is a healer issue and that healers should be expected to carry more than the other players in the raid.

DPS dies? Healer didn't heal.
Tank dies? Healer didn't heal.
Healer dies? Healer didn't move/heal.

You should definitely talk to him about it because it is bothering you. Just try to let him know that in a more stressful raid environment with both a newish healer and newish tank (to the role) that there will be mistakes made. But stress that the jumping to insults is not something that you feel would make the healers heal harder. A majority of the healers are a different breed than DPS and don't like just being told to do more or the tough love act. I would check logs to really get to the root of the issue that happened. But from the sounds of it both the heals and new tank combined is what caused the wipes, so having your RL blame heals first is a bad move.
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90 Worgen Priest
6375
That's kind of the life of a healer. When healers drop the ball, the entire raid wipes. Same thing can be said for tanks, although they have less opportunities to mess up. If a dps makes a minor mistake, they just lose some dps and move on. No one is perfect, and !@#$ will happen. I enjoy being a healer, and I like the responsibility that coincide with the role. Some might see it as a burden, but it's why I enjoy playing the game.

With that said, I wouldn't let anyone treat me like that. He might have just acted out because he didn't want to get blamed for not being that great of a tank or having poor gear. If you've known him for awhile, just talk to him and set him straight. He'll either respect what you have to say and watch what he says, or you can leave the group or change to dps. If you're a quality healer, he'll go to great lengths to keep you around.
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1 Goblin Hunter
0
Thank you for the input guys. I'm used to hearing harsh criticism from the RL, I don't know why what he said affected me so much this time. He's a great tank in great gear, for the record.

I have thought of a few things that could be affecting my ability to heal on this fight that I may bring up to him, one regarding my spec/reforges and two, the way we do the fight that differs from other raids.

I do believe he thinks I am a good healer.

I don't like the idea of being considered "scrub" and still being invited to raids... either I'm a scrub and you don't invite me, or I'm not and you do invite me. I don't want to be doing my best for a raid that considers me a scrub.

Lately this hostile attitude he has toward the healers has spread throughout the group in that they feel like openly disparaging us as well, which is another concern about him talking about us as "scrubs."
Edited by Swid on 4/29/2012 12:57 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Priest
6375
I've never healed a DK for heroic yor, and it hasn't ever been an issue. With the 15% nerf, it really is a healer issue if you have your tank die. Heroic Yor is one of those fights where healers are really critical to a successful clear.

I doubt your dps are all that great either, but healing is definitely a component that is holding your raid back. I know that might be hard to hear, but that's the truth. If the DPS think they're good, it's probably only because they're not comparing themselves to dps outside of their raid, so I'm sure there is tons of room for improvement there, as well.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14475
04/29/2012 03:15 PMPosted by Odioushealer
I've never healed a DK for heroic yor, and it hasn't ever been an issue. With the 15% nerf, it really is a healer issue if you have your tank die.


You can't just state that categorically, tanks are responsible for using their cooldowns (and in some cases, active mitigation abilities).
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70 Draenei Paladin
13210
I'd call him a scrub raid leader if he called me a scrub healer/dps/tank/wutever. And then say how we should all jump in a bubble bath and scrub each other nice and clean.

He asks 'huh wu?' or similar, I'd just say I'm being brutally honest, he kidna smells and could use a good loofah'n.
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90 Orc Warrior
17225
It's impact not intent. He probably did not mean to hurt you and he probably holds you in high esteem, but that does not change the fact that the impact of his actions is you getting hurt. Tell him how he made you feel. If he shows no remorse in making you feel like crap and tell you to just deal with it, then perhaps it's time to part ways.
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58 Dwarf Death Knight
0
Definitely talk to him at some time when he's free to talk - not right before or after a raid. One way to try to reduce defensiveness is to start with things you like about his raid leading. But you do need to tell him how his blanket public blaming of healers without specific advice for improvement made you feel. It might also help if you come into the conversation with suggestions for how healers can communicate better with each other and the raid leader - maybe a healer chat channel, or using a cooldown tracking add to make sure that cooldowns are being used at good times, or more organized healing assignments. Ideally, you're trying to steer his energy into communicating more helpfully rather than throwing around the "scrub" term.
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04/29/2012 11:43 AMPosted by Swid
Lately this hostile attitude he has toward the healers has spread throughout the group in that they feel like openly disparaging us as well, which is another concern about him talking about us as "scrubs."


When I read your first post, I immediately thought "recruitment problem in the making." Then I read the above, which confirmed it.

If you like your guild, I think you owe it to your RL and GL to discuss this. I wouldn't necessarily make it about how you feel, but point out that this kind of attitude can (and has) spread, and that it is demoralizing for the healers. If it goes unchecked, I can guarantee you'll find healers who stop logging in or change to DPS. I can also guarantee that when you try to recruit replacements you'll find they leave at the first "scrub healer" comment. There are plenty of places people can raid where a) they don't have to put up with unnecessary abuse and b) can expect a raid leader competent enough to diagnose the actual problems.

Frankly, a blanket statement like "it's the healers' fault" is a sure sign of an ignorant raid leader. It is absolutely a good idea to review death logs, review incoming damage, and determine if there's a strategy issue or an execution issue. Specific criticisms to help improve performance on an encounter are often necessary and productive. But as has been pointed out above, noting that the tank is dying to Focused Assault does not automatically mean the healers are failing. Is the new tank slow to hit his CD when that comes up? Or is he not taunting to take the damage on time? Does he generally take more damage per hit than the previous tank? Is this a stat weighting issue, perhaps?

If your RL can't answer these questions, that's not an insurmountable problem. But if he covers his ignorance by scapegoating an entire group, that is something that needs to be addressed before it implodes your raid team.
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6 Human Hunter
0
You're entitled to your feelings. Seems quite a few factors were off that night, that douche tanking being one.

I was in a guild (The Golden Order on Madoran) once where they had a rule "no looting during pulls" I thought it was a quirky rule, but whatever. Over time I liked the dicipline. This was during Molten Core days if it matters. One day someone looted during a pull and quite a few ppl had the impression that was why people died. (Fiery Core was an item you rolled on)

Drama on the forums followed and the person was gone. No idea if they quit or kicked. The whole raid suffered. Resentment, no shows etc...

Progression aside, you have to play for you. So first and foremost, it should be fun. Actions like his make it not so. Get your other healers together and see how they feel. I wouldn't create an uprising, but let it be known how you feel. A forum war I wouldn't reccommend, but getting on vent and talking it out so everyone hears. I know it's hard. But for the health of your guild, I believe necessary. Have the GM or someone there as a neutral party. Agree to keep it civil. Then move on. Nothing wrong in this world (any world) with telling others how you feel. Hopefully he's on a scrub who can't listen and find a compromise.

If that happens, all loyalty aside, /gquit. You shouldn't put up with constant abuse. Progression doesn't have to be unjoyable.
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90 Orc Shaman
11445
Yeah, discussing it with him is the key here. He may have been frustrated and took it out on someone else. It happens.

Just let him know that you don't mind him being critical of mistakes, but name-calling was uncalled for.

Letting this simmer will do much more damage in the long run and can adversely affect your ability to work with him or to communicate things that need to be communicated. B

But definitely approach him in whispers first. Then if the conversation seems to be going in a bad direction, see if you can't get someone to mediate.
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04/29/2012 11:43 AMPosted by Swid
Lately this hostile attitude he has toward the healers has spread throughout the group in that they feel like openly disparaging us as well, which is another concern about him talking about us as "scrubs."


Raiding is supposed to be fun. Playing with people that don't like and respect you doesn't sound like fun to me. Personally, I'd be looking for a new home.
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90 Worgen Mage
4155
You should just talk with him about it sometime when he is relaxed and not raiding. Don't try to address the matter on a raid day, just try to catch him in a mellow mood. If he's a good raid leader he will know well enough to apologize. It is one thing to say it in the moment of the wipe when adrenaline is pumping, but if he can't acknowledge that he overreacted and apologize maybe he shouldn't be where he is.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12810
I would sit down and talk with him.

Tell him you're more than open to honest criticism - but it's not constructive criticism for him to belittle ANYONE in the raid openly. As a general rule, it breeds resentment at best (if the person(s) targeted are decent and know they generally do a good job) or embarassment when something was done incorrectly. Neither leads to better performance in general.

Make sure to point out that the whole team wants to improve - and any insight is quite appreciated and welcome. However, making it feel like it's "raiders VS the RL" is not going to lead to improvement.

Criticism is not name calling, belittling, or generalized put downs. That's just childish, vague, and demeaning. Constructive, even if harsh, might be (in whisper) "hey XhealsX, I thought you said you were going to practice keeping your uptimes of xspell up this week and reforging as we'd gone over? So what happened? I'm looking at the log of this fight and your uptime was lower than last week's attempts."

While it might not be comfortable to hear "hey, you slacked and it shows, here's how," that's at least constructive.

Hopefully if you can catch him in a relaxed mood, he'll see the line to stay on the right side of :)
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90 Dwarf Priest
16440
I've never healed a DK for heroic yor, and it hasn't ever been an issue. With the 15% nerf, it really is a healer issue if you have your tank die.

Read what Swid wrote:

the RL was tanking which is not typical for us and takes much more dmg than our usual guy who tanks that fight.

Hardmodes require dps and especially tanks to help mitigate the damage, or the damage is simply unhealable. These wipes were partly due to an inexperienced healer, but also partly due to the raid leader's inexperienced tanking. Yet the RL refused to accept any of the blame.
Edited by Cullodina on 5/3/2012 9:55 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
8150
Typical scenario. Raid wipes. Step one, blame the healers. Step two, see step one. It happens to all healers, people get upset and say things out of frustration. Have you ever done that? Doesnt make it right, but the easy way out is to blame us, since we are only responsible for keeping us and the raid alive. When the healer bandwagon rolls out, I am quick to deflate the tires by focusing on the real issues, which usually are something else. Now if you see a healer only pulling 4k hps, then it may be relevant depending on the fight. Next time make a comment on how poor of a RL he is by tearing people down instead of encouraging good behavior and keeping the raid in good spirits and on task. There is constructive criticism but calling you "scrub healers" doesnt really point to how you can improve what you are doing, and should just be considered rude.
Edited by Foulmoon on 5/4/2012 11:24 AM PDT
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6 Human Hunter
0
Hope this situation worked out!!!
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
Egads I did not realize this thread was necro'd .. Sorry folks
Edited by Ssinfull on 9/16/2012 8:11 PM PDT
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