Maths of Pandaria: Elemental Beta Report

90 Orc Shaman
10495
05/04/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Bubblenrun
Sadly the author perma-banned me quite awhile ago for reasons unknown to me. I attempted to reach out to him to find out why, but he never responded so it's GG.


05/04/2012 01:12 PMPosted by Chillbronies
lmao
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18500
Yeah yeah laugh it up. All of you probably remember when I was having issues with it awhile ago? That was it. Coincidentally I finally figured out what the "error: Banned" script by the request sticky was referring to.

Still don't know what I did, but I guess he tracks everyone who uses his addon. His site said he usually temp bans people before he does perma...so maybe I should humor reinstalling it to see if I'm unbanned now.
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85 Draenei Shaman
11100

For the revamped talents, Elemental Mastery is going to be the clear choice from level 60, mostly because of stacking it with Ascendance (if you work it right, you'll be able to get one Ascendance cast with Bloodlust, and the other with Elemental Mastery


Why do you feel like Elemental Mastery is a better choice than Echo of the Elements? I would think that the haste from EM during Ascendance would be somewhat wasted with any decent haste levels on our gear. If we were to follow your stat weights, then it's possible that we could just tailor our haste levels to reach a 1 second Lava Burst cast with EM up., but you still have to consider Lava Surge procs. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

I'm really feeling Echo of the Elements in this talent tier though. The constant flow of procs is very satisfying.

It's going to take nearly 5000 haste rating to get to the point where we start getting GCD at 1 second during EM, but the fact that you can get every second Ascendance stacking with every third EM means it's Big Numbers. The only difference lava surge procs make is that LvB will be instant rather than cast, but it'll still be the same time per cast (lvb = 1.5 base cast time).

Once we get more haste, Echo may come to the fore a bit more, but not to start with. It's got a lot of ground to catch up.

05/04/2012 11:49 AMPosted by Azloran
Not to mention, unless I'm missing something, the FlS = auto LvB crit mechanic is still there so that makes crit almost worthless every time you pop ascendance since the vast majority of the time we'll be spamming LvB with possibly a fulmination drop or two. So I have a hard time believing that crit has suddenly found an amazing place for us outside of ascendance.


Intuitively, this is what I'm thinking. Ascendance actually makes crit worth even less, because everything in that 15 second period is guaranteed to crit without any crit rating.

Maybe the extra 50% crit damage will help with the 70% of our damage that isn't lava burst, and crit really is that good.

I'm also a bit confused regarding the flame shock clipping. So you're saying we get another tick of leeway for refreshing it, but how does that help us with fulmination? I'd imagine we would still want to refresh Flame Shock as close to it expiring as possible, and refreshing FS at 4 seconds remaining isn't really going to help us with fulmination.
You're not missing something. However, intuition is never a good substitute for math, I'm afraid. Lava Burst is supplying approx 36% of our total damage, but since we'll have lower crit values to begin with and harder hitting spells, not to mention the larger crit bonuses, it's not surprising that crit is worth more than it was during Cataclysm.

Most of the reason why crit was deflated during Cata was that we had 10% from raid buffs, Lava Burst was doing a larger percentage of damage, and crits were only 209% for our other spells vs 228% for Lava Burst.

I'm expecting the values to change a bit as the beta goes on, and we build different gear sets to test things.
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05/04/2012 08:39 PMPosted by Askledarea
It's going to take nearly 5000 haste rating to get to the point where we start getting GCD at 1 second during EM, but the fact that you can get every second Ascendance stacking with every third EM means it's Big Numbers. The only difference lava surge procs make is that LvB will be instant rather than cast, but it'll still be the same time per cast (lvb = 1.5 base cast time).


What are you basing this 5000 number on? 85 or 90? At 85, it only takes me around 1300 haste to reach a 1 second Lava Burst cast time with EM up, but I don't know what the level 90 numbers look like yet.
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85 Draenei Shaman
11100
90, because who really cares about working out stuff at 85 around a 87 ability?

At 90 500 haste rating = 1% haste
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Gotcha. I'm impatiently waiting for level 90 testing. I'm very excited to not only return to my shaman, but also to play Elemental with these changes. Should be fun!
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13820
You're not missing something. However, intuition is never a good substitute for math, I'm afraid. Lava Burst is supplying approx 36% of our total damage, but since we'll have lower crit values to begin with and harder hitting spells, not to mention the larger crit bonuses, it's not surprising that crit is worth more than it was during Cataclysm.

Most of the reason why crit was deflated during Cata was that we had 10% from raid buffs, Lava Burst was doing a larger percentage of damage, and crits were only 209% for our other spells vs 228% for Lava Burst.

I'm expecting the values to change a bit as the beta goes on, and we build different gear sets to test things.

I haven't been paying too much attention to shaman spells, but wont crit also be increasing critical strike damage for elemental? I know the intended thing for destruction on my warlock is that we stack crit, not just because crits are awesome, but because crit increases said damage done (I believe this is how the stat works in Rift). Basically they're making it so that you can't reach the hard crit cap (not possible anyways) but instead causing the current hard cap to become a soft cap.

Wouldn't be surprised to see it work the same way for elemental.
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85 Draenei Shaman
11100
*blink*

Crit rating increases chance, not damage. The 259% crits are because of Meta gem bonuses interacting with the 50% crit damage bonus Elemental gets on top of the 200% base crit damage.

There is no "soft" cap, nor is there a hard cap unless you consider 100% to be the hard cap. You do get diminishing returns on crit though, but that's beside the point.
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90 Worgen Warlock
12820
05/05/2012 01:47 AMPosted by Askledarea
Crit rating increases chance, not damage

Im aware, I just know I saw something about that changing or potentially changing to also increase critical strike damage dealt, this may have been entirely pertaining to Destruction, it may be that I'm a champion at reading poorly.

I'm digging around for a source but it's late, I no do words good.
Edited by Symposium on 5/5/2012 2:33 AM PDT
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85 Draenei Shaman
11100
It's just for soul fire/chaos bolt.
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05/05/2012 04:04 AMPosted by Askledarea
It's just for soul fire/chaos bolt.


Which is an interesting way to make crit useful for spells, like those, that always crit. I doubt Lava Burst will see this kind of change though.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
11590
...Crit?

Hmm. Interesting. Can't say I'm too surprised, what with crit being FAR more damage in Mists, but I like my machine gun casting style.
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90 Worgen Warlock
12820
05/05/2012 04:04 AMPosted by Askledarea
It's just for soul fire/chaos bolt.
Well that seems right, mah bad
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18500
Yeah Refrigerator get out of here with your stupid warlock nonsense. We don't need any Shaman quitters in here.
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90 Worgen Warlock
12820
05/05/2012 12:39 PMPosted by Bubblenrun
Yeah Refrigerator get out of here with your stupid warlock nonsense. We don't need any Shaman quitters in here.

stuff it bubble boy ;D
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90 Troll Shaman
10540
I would like to see a similar scaling to Lava burst based on crit rating, as how warlocks get with Soul Fire.

Even with crit being mathematically superior in MoP (assuming it stays the same), I'm still going to find it unpleasant that one of our key abilities does not scale with it. Likely moreso, if we're aiming for it now. It just feels unsatisfying otherwise.

A Lava Burst that does scale up it's damage with crit though would certainly a be more rewarding and distinctly powerful spell to cast, so even if the numbers were adjusted elsewhere to compensate, It'd likely feel better to use.
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85 Draenei Shaman
11100
I think the critical damage bonus is our counter to crit not affecting Lava Burst.
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90 Troll Shaman
10540
05/05/2012 06:03 PMPosted by Askledarea
I think the critical damage bonus is our counter to crit not affecting Lava Burst.


This is my assumption as well, but I'm concerned about the potential scaling issues that could arise later on. Such as how haste used to not affect dots, making it significantly weaker for aff locks and spriests. If our best scaling secondary stat affects most of our damage, but does not affect a noticable portion, we'd need somewhat better scaling from our other secondary stats in comparison to other dps classes to remain competitive.

While this is quite doable, I'm not sure it's something that would be maintained without somewhat regular adjustments down the line as gear levels improve. Making Lava Burst itself scale with crit in some fashion would likely help reduce the need for changes like that.

I'll admit the other portion is subjective. I quite like the bigger crits, and am absolutely in favor of that. and I don't have a particular problem with stacking crit if that maths out the best solution for us. But I won't say that I wouldn't have a nagging annoyance at the fact that ~36% of our damage wouldn't be scaling with the stat that we'd be focusing on. Even indirect scaling, something that made lava burst interact with another part of our rotation, scaling based on chance to crit would be fine. Just so that this significant portion of our rotation isn't unaffected by a significant portion of our stats.
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"Why do you feel like Elemental Mastery is a better choice than Echo of the Elements?" Because Echo is roughly a 7% proc rate for elemental (MUCH higher for enhance) and doesn't proc off mastery (however it can proc along with mastery). After stacking stormlash, trinkets and ascendance EM becomes pretty nice. Having said that I'm not sure what gives more of a dps boost over the course of a boss fight because of the lack of addons including the DPS addons. As of right now though wish Ascendance being so awesome, it's hard to not want 15 LvB cast in 15s rather than 11. The last thing I wanted to mention is that without any addons to let you know when Echo procs, it visually seems like it's not doing anything considering it's low proc rate.
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