Wielding two 2.6 speed weapons in MoP?

85 Human Warrior
3835
Do you think Blizzard will make it somehow viable for Combat to to wield two slow weapons like every other duel-wield spec?
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Do it anyways. Because !@#$ the rules.

Side Note: Deadly Poison is the only thing stopping a 2.6/2.6 spec(to my knowledge). All they have to do is make the procs scale with speed and BAM!, you'll have your 2.6/2.6.
Edited by Knocrogue on 5/3/2012 5:19 PM PDT
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85 Orc Rogue
11425
I've tried it on Beta with two H No'kaleds, and it feels clunky as all get out. Having a bad string of not hitting Combat potency is significantly more noticeable with two 2.6s.
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100 Dwarf Rogue
17190
Side Note: Deadly Poison is the only thing stopping a 2.6/2.6 spec(to my knowledge)


Combat potency also. And to a much lesser extent Shiv. I think deadly poison, combat potency and shiv are the only three reasons rogues favor fast offhands.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
In MOP, Combat Potency scales with weapons speeds and Shiv has a fix cost of 20 energy.
I probably should have mentioned I was talking about MOP in my original post. :(
Edited by Knocrogue on 5/4/2012 6:03 AM PDT
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80 Worgen Rogue
11450
Do it anyways. Because !@#$ the rules.

Side Note: Deadly Poison is the only thing stopping a 2.6/2.6 spec(to my knowledge). All they have to do is make the procs scale with speed and BAM!, you'll have your 2.6/2.6.


if by speed you mean PPM, then yes. also in the last build all 1.4 off hands were made 1.8. i believe blizzard direction with combat is to use two 2.6. although right now its still very early beta, the rogue class atm in beta is very clunky and incoherent.
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85 Orc Rogue
11425
On Live, Combat potency doesn't scale with weapon speed.
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96 Blood Elf Rogue
16305
Currently, on Live the only rogue mechanics that are affected by off-hand weapon speed are:

1) PPH poisons, which favor fast
2) Combat Potency, which favors fast
3) Killing Spree, which favors slow
4) Mutilate, which favors slow
5) Shiv, which technically favors both (fast for reduced energy cost, slow for the damage portion, though in practice the energy cost is more important than the damage).

Looking at MoP currently, Combat Potency has been made PPM which makes weapon speed unimportant (the only areas where a PPM mechanic will favor a slow offhand are abilities that hit with the offhand, which would only be Killing Spree and Shiv, which are separate topics). And the mutilate favoritism becomes a moot point since all MoP daggers will be the same speed (I only included mutilate in the list for completeness). And Shiv's energy cost became constant (which technically makes a slow off-hand slightly better since it'll make shiv hit a little harder, but really this isn't likely to be a factor in anyone's weapon decisions).

And, all poisons are currently PPH in MoP.

So that leaves:
1) PPH poisons (ie all of them), which favor fast.
2) Killing Spree, which favors slow.
(and technically shiv favoring slow, but again, shiv damage is a non-issue).

I would personally like to see them make all poisons PPM instead of PPH, AND make it so that Killing Spree does not hit with the offhand anymore (honestly the MoP version of killing spree isn't about the direct damage anymore anyways, it's about the free finishers, and they could just make the mh damage from KSp hit harder to make up for the loss of the offhand damage).

This would make it so that offhand speed has no impact whatsoever on overall dps, and leave offhand choice as a purely stylistic choice for players.

Do I think it will happen? I don't know. Back when we were first told that 1.4 daggers were going away and that all poisons would be PPH in MoP I'd have said "no, they'll never do it", but then again at that time I thought them making combat potency PPM was the least likely of these changes to happen and they did that, so.....*shrug*
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
So that leaves:
1) PPH poisons (ie all of them), which favor fast.
2) Killing Spree, which favors slow.


I totally forgot about Killing Spree. That's interesting. Maybe the difference in Killing Spree's damage would make the difference in Deadly procs a non-issue?

Also, they threw the free finishers idea out the window. :(
Killing Spree works exactly as it does on live, except 7 assaults instead of 5.
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90 Human Rogue
12760
Energy capping still a big issue in the Beta? I imagine it'll be difficult not to cap during KS if it's 7 hits now instead of 5.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
I haven't really played around as Combat, plus I don't have the gear for it. But, I remember reading a post that said they were actually energy starved. O.o
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85 Orc Rogue
11425
05/05/2012 02:36 PMPosted by Khalnayak
Energy capping still a big issue in the Beta? I imagine it'll be difficult not to cap during KS if it's 7 hits now instead of 5.


Nah, it's a fair amount slower than on live in the same gear. I'd imagine once we're in raid gear again, it will catch back up later on to how it is now. But for the first tier or so, it will be much like T11, where you don't cap very often. At least running dungeons, I haven't capped with 7 KS hits so far if timed properly. It will probably become an issue later on.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
You know, they could make a cool glyph for that. Something like "Increase the damage dealt while Killing Spree is active an additional 20% and the assaults by an additional 2. However, Killing Spree now costs (a reasonable amount) energy".
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96 Blood Elf Rogue
16305
So that leaves:
1) PPH poisons (ie all of them), which favor fast.
2) Killing Spree, which favors slow.


I totally forgot about Killing Spree. That's interesting. Maybe the difference in Killing Spree's damage would make the difference in Deadly procs a non-issue?

Also, they threw the free finishers idea out the window. :(
Killing Spree works exactly as it does on live, except 7 assaults instead of 5.


That is disappointing, though honestly not terribly surprising that they redacted the new Killing Spree. I guess they could still remove the off-hand damage and just buff the main-hand portion of Killing Spree with what I suggested, though it would take away some of the "feel" of it.

As for the conflict of fast offhand for poisons vs slow offhand for Killing Spree and which turns out better, that is the big question atm. From everything I've heard said it seems that currently in the Beta poisons are a very large chunk of our dps, while Killing Spree is still a rather small portion, which would imply that a fast weapon for more poison procs would be the bigger benefit. Though at the same time Backstabi made a topic I think last week with some Beta target-dummy numbers and said that a slow offhand was giving better dps than a fast offhand but couldn't really identify how or why it was happening (even said that killing spree was still a small portion of overall damage (6.5%).

Let's assume we start out with a pair of 2.6 speed weapons, switching the offhand to a 1.8 would weaken the offhand portion of Killing Spree by about 31%, and considering that offhand damage is already reduced by 25% anyways I think a 31% reduction to the offhand would result in the overall damage of Killing Spree going down by about 13.2%. And given how much of our dps comes from Killing Spree this likely to be in the neighborhood of less than a 1% loss in overall dps (probably around 0.8% loss).

At the same time the 1.8 offhand would result in approximately 45% more offhand poison procs, which I think would be about a 13% increase in overall poison damage (this is a very sloppy approximation, according to backstabi's topic he only saw ~6% increase, but I can't see how it'd be that small). Even if poison procs are only 10% of our dps this would still be a 1.3% increase in overall dps. And from what I understand poison damage is actually closer to 20~30% of our damage in Beta, which means this is likely to be closer to 2.5~4% dps gain.

Granted a net gain of 2~3% isn't exactly huge, so I guess either weapon speed could indeed be viable in MoP, but fast still appears as though it'll be better. And at the same time if they made poisons PPM then slow weapons would be better only by the ~1% dps gain they'd provide to Killing Spree.

I'm now very intrigued to see how things shake out later in the Beta when damage balances start coming and theory-crafters start working their higher level sorcery.
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96 Blood Elf Rogue
16305
I apologize for the above post, it was supposed to stop half-way through the second paragraph and then I side tracked myself....twice.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12830
05/05/2012 04:27 PMPosted by Knocrogue
I haven't really played around as Combat, plus I don't have the gear for it. But, I remember reading a post that said they were actually energy starved. O.o


I didn't have much trouble with my gear, but then again, my gear is a little good...

Killing Spree was able to one shot all the premade level 85's on beta that I tested.
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90 Draenei Paladin
17015
I have been searching around for a definitive post on any website that confirms combat rogues can now use 2.6 weapons in both hands. I can see that it is pretty much used but was looking to read up on it. Anybody have a link by chance?
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10760
Please don't necro threads. :)

The answer depends on what you mean by "confirms." It's mentioned in at least two of the stickied threads (and MANY other individual threads) in this forum; in a number of posts on Elitist Jerks; and when we were still in beta, Ghostcrawler posted this:

We made some changes such that Combat with a pair of 2.6 weapons will be much closer to someone wielding a fast offhand than they are today. Last I looked, I believe wielding a fast offhand was still theoretically slightly better. Hopefully it is in the realm where you can use whatever drops.
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