Theory on Turalyon and Anduin Wrynn

05/17/2012 06:26 AMPosted by Rhoggarn
There is nothing in Anduin's characterization up to this point that indicates he would ever take the neutral road.


You are in for a such a surprise when you read anything that has Anduin in it, hoo boy.


I've read plenty with Anduin in it. The comics, the Shattering, and Wolfheart. He may be a pacifist with a deep respect for his opponents, but he's not neutral. He cares far too much about the people of Stormwind and the Alliance as a whole to walk away from them.
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When did the issue of honor among the orcs come up? Like, at all?

The anger is about another Alliance character going neutral.



Considering he is the son of the head of the Alliance, if I could, my Alliance toons would find a way to beat the holy crap out of the little snot for offering any quests to the Horde. Especially if he starts spouting off crap like how honorable and noble the Horde is.
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Sports fans worry me all the same.

If Anduin is helping the Horde engage war against the Alliance, he is committing treason. Is he? Or is he helping the Horde do generic "save the world" quests in the fashion of Tirion Fordring or Malfurion Stormrage in Firelands?

Should Malfurion Stormrage be executed for treason for helping Horde players to defeat Ragnaros? Should my toon be executed for treason for helping Malfurion Stormrage restore Hyjal? For helping restore Cenarius to the living plane? Should all the members of the Argent Dawn and Earthen Ring and Guardians of Hyjal feel very sowwy for putting down the gavel for ten seconds in this meaningless and petty war between factions to save the world?
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
4480
If Anduin is helping the Horde engage war against the Alliance, he is committing treason. Is he? Or is he helping the Horde do generic "save the world" quests in the fashion of Tirion Fordring or Malfurion Stormrage in Firelands?

Should Malfurion Stormrage be executed for treason for helping Horde players to defeat Ragnaros? Should my toon be executed for treason for helping Malfurion Stormrage restore Hyjal? For helping restore Cenarius to the living plane? Should all the members of the Argent Dawn and Earthen Ring and Guardians of Hyjal feel very sowwy for putting down the gavel for ten seconds in this meaningless and petty war between factions to save the world?


Tirion and Malfurion aren't part of the Alliance or Horde.

They're neutral. They're outside the jurisdiction of either faction.
Edited by Rhoggarn on 5/17/2012 11:11 AM PDT
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05/17/2012 11:36 AMPosted by Kynrind
because there isn't any Alliance soldier alive that wants to respect and find the Horde honorable.


Overstatement and not entirely true.
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100 Human Paladin
9610
Anduin is more like Tirion than Turalyon. I would go so far in saying that if Varian finds out about what he is doing in Beta continues into the real expansion, the King will definitely have no choice than to put him up for treason and the only place Anduin would be truely accepted is with the Argent Crusade. Maybe as an eventual successor for Tirion.
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55 Draenei Death Knight
470
I dunno about that, Turaylon never gave away a powerful legendary artifact to his people sworn enemies to help kill Alliance soldiers. sooo No, no parallels at all.
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05/17/2012 07:55 PMPosted by Crappytank
I dunno about that, Turaylon never gave away a powerful legendary artifact to his people sworn enemies to help kill Alliance soldiers. sooo No, no parallels at all.


Since when has Baine killed alliance soldiers? In lore? I've not heard of a single instance.

Beside, the gift was from one friend to another. Not an Alliance member to a Horde member. They've kinda transcended the whole faction difference.
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Not really. There likely aren't -any- human, dwarven, or Night elven Alliance soldiers that have any reason to even want to give the Horde any respect or honor. Ever since the Horde came to Azeroth, it's been killing and taking land, destroying entire nations in very brutal ways. The Alliance has seen about 50-70% of it's population killed and/or turned into undead. They have lost huge amounts of land from the Horde aggression. The Alliance hasn't gotten any real peace since the Dark Portal opened.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohhs8NKBnqI

http://www.wowwiki.com/Tirion_Fordring#Eitrigg_incident

And ounce of honesty or a smidge of qualifier would help your case considerably.

It's particularly laughable how you try and blame the Scourge on the Horde.

You might want to read this article:

http://www.wowpedia.org/Burning_Legion
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100 Human Paladin
14455
05/17/2012 11:35 PMPosted by Kynrind


Since when has Baine killed alliance soldiers? In lore? I've not heard of a single instance.

Beside, the gift was from one friend to another. Not an Alliance member to a Horde member. They've kinda transcended the whole faction difference.


Being friends with someone of the other faction in a time of war would still be considered treason.


It was before the Cataclysm. Heck nobody even knows about it. While in some way it could be considered treason but I'd be more worried if Anduin was friends with Krom'gar or even Garrosh but we all know that aint happening.
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Being friends with someone of the other faction in a time of war would still be considered treason.


I guess you should prep the gallows for Malfurion Stormrage's execution, then.

Edit: And Tirion Fordring.

That's two of the greatest heroes Azeroth has ever known.

PS, you do realize that the Dark Portal was opened by Medivh, who was under demonic possession by Sargeras at the time?
Edited by Dokarm on 5/18/2012 12:16 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
14220
05/17/2012 11:35 PMPosted by Kynrind
Being friends with someone of the other faction in a time of war would still be considered treason.


Tell that to Koltira and Thassarian.

Their friendship went as far as to give the other a chance to rest and regroup their forces after they teamed up to kick Gandling out of Andorhol. However, both had the understanding that they would fight each other and only one would be walking away from the fight.

It was Sylvanas that used the Valkyr to take over Andorhol, and it is Sylvanas that is now torturing Koltira underneith the Undercity and Thassarian is out to save him.

You go on about how alliance soldiers do not want to hear about how honerable Horde is? to me that says there is no soldier in the alliance that has a brain that can seperate a person from their people and a race from their faction:

Orcs: have a semblance of Honor in that they respect and don't underestimate their enemies and, with some noted exceptions (Krom'gar), tend to shy away from killing innocents/non-combatants and dishonorable tactics (the forsaken pligue/blight).
Tauren: likely the most honorable of the Horde races. A tauren Chieftain lost his family cause he tried to stand up and prevent the bombing Krom'gar did on the druidic school.
Trolls: The Darkspears seem to be like the orcs without the exceptions (lack of storytelling for them to really judge)
Forsaken: these guys will use anything to meet their ends, if that means plaguing a town, so be it, if that means wholesale slaughter, oh well.
Blood Elves: Still rebuilding after the decimation of the scourge attacks, but have a sense of honor that at least extends as far as respect for a fight well fought.
Goblins: Anything for money attitude, but some might have a few qualms with certain things so better to judge them on an individual bases.

05/17/2012 08:26 PMPosted by Kynrind
There likely aren't -any- human, dwarven, or Night elven Alliance soldiers that have any reason to even want to give the Horde any respect or honor.


They can respect them for their battle prowess and, depending on the fight, their tactics. They can also respect the fact that the leaders are doing what they think is best for their people. Neither one would really change the fact that, to the alliance, the Horde are evil and likely need to die. On the honor part, are you telling me no one in the alliance would allow the horde to bury their dead in a way that befitted a warrior that fell in battle? Because, if so, congradulations you just painted the alliance as Honorless scumbags that would rather spit on their enemies then even given them the smallest of curtasies.

05/17/2012 08:26 PMPosted by Kynrind
Ever since the Horde came to Azeroth, it's been killing and taking land, destroying entire nations in very brutal ways.


You mean aside from the period of withdrawal after the second war (when most orcs were in internment camps)? Or how about when the orcs, Trolls and Tauren teramed up with Night Elves and Humans to protect the World Tree on Hyjal? Then there is the after math of that, during which the Tauren Settled In Mulgore, the Orcs built Orgrimmar and settled Durotar while the Trolls took the Echo Isles for the first time. This fragile peace was first broken when Admiral Proudmoore (Jaina's daddy) attacked Durotar just cause there were orcs there.

As far as Anduin going neutral? the dungeon he gives horde aid in is so he can get something to help the pandaren, would it make you happy if the Horde got a sunwalker that gave the same quest/quest line?

I have suggested that they tone down Anduin's Neutrality, ideas that might aid in that are: him shutting his yap about the horde when around alliance, him refering to the other races of the horde instead of lumping them all together (like saying the Tauren are Honorable but the forsaken are scum), him conceding that the horde/horde races have done some pretty dishonorable thiings but countering it with something another member of the horde did, etc.
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100 Human Paladin
11420

Tell that to Koltira and Thassarian.

Their friendship went as far as to give the other a chance to rest and regroup their forces after they teamed up to kick Gandling out of Andorhol. However, both had the understanding that they would fight each other and only one would be walking away from the fight.


Thassarians friendship contributed to the overwhelming Alliance defeat, Koltira could have cost the Horde the battle but someone had the sense to step in and smack him upside the head and is probably reminding him in the Undercity that wars are not won by concessions for your enemies benefit, alas the Alliance has nobody to smack some sense into Thassarian.


It was Sylvanas that used the Valkyr to take over Andorhol, and it is Sylvanas that is now torturing Koltira underneith the Undercity and Thassarian is out to save him.


He could have simply spared him after defeating him, or killed him in honourable single combat, but his hesitance to make a push and crush the forsaken cost the Alliance a victory and a commander since he has the gall to go awol in the middle of the war to rescue his bromantic interest.


Orcs: have a semblance of Honor in that they respect and don't underestimate their enemies and, with some noted exceptions (Krom'gar), tend to shy away from killing innocents/non-combatants and dishonorable tactics (the forsaken pligue/blight).


They don't seem to shy away from it very hard, since the blight is out in force and civilians still manage to find themselves slain at Orc hands.


Forsaken: these guys will use anything to meet their ends, if that means plaguing a town, so be it, if that means wholesale slaughter, oh well.


The Forsaken call into question the honour of the rest of the Horde just by being associated with them, you do not get to say Orcs "tend to shy away from killing innocents/non-combatants and dishonorable tactics" when they harbour the people who use those very tactics with reckless abandon.


They can respect them for their battle prowess and, depending on the fight, their tactics. They can also respect the fact that the leaders are doing what they think is best for their people. Neither one would really change the fact that, to the alliance, the Horde are evil and likely need to die. On the honor part, are you telling me no one in the alliance would allow the horde to bury their dead in a way that befitted a warrior that fell in battle? Because, if so, congradulations you just painted the alliance as Honorless scumbags that would rather spit on their enemies then even given them the smallest of curtasies.


The Horde doesn't show the Alliance any such courtesy, the Forsaken make abominations out of Alliance corpses and Orcs wear Worgen scalps as hats and take severed Nelf heads as trophies, why exactly would a sentinel be keen on letting an Orc soldier get an "honourable" burial when said Orc soldier has the severed heads of her sisters hanging from his belt.


You mean aside from the period of withdrawal after the second war (when most orcs were in internment camps)?


Funny how there is peace when the Horde is effectively neutered.

05/18/2012 04:44 AMPosted by Ujarak
Or how about when the orcs, Trolls and Tauren teramed up with Night Elves and Humans to protect the World Tree on Hyjal?


This says far more about the Alliance than the Horde, the Horde attacked Jaina's forces on sight and they also killed a Nelf demigod, yet the Alliance and Nelf forces still weren't above working with them even if the Horde were only in it to save their own skins from the demons first and foremost.

05/18/2012 04:44 AMPosted by Ujarak
Then there is the after math of that, during which the Tauren Settled In Mulgore, the Orcs built Orgrimmar and settled Durotar while the Trolls took the Echo Isles for the first time. This fragile peace was first broken when Admiral Proudmoore (Jaina's daddy) attacked Durotar just cause there were orcs there.


Who rightly believed the Horde would become a threat to the Alliance if left unchecked, he's been pretty well vindicated now that we know Theramore is being destroyed.


As far as Anduin going neutral? the dungeon he gives horde aid in is so he can get something to help the pandaren, would it make you happy if the Horde got a sunwalker that gave the same quest/quest line?


I for one would, it would imply that there was actual effort put into the game by there being two different characters instead of constantly having to share, neutral characters are lazy design, boring and often very contrived.


I have suggested that they tone down Anduin's Neutrality, ideas that might aid in that are: him shutting his yap about the horde when around alliance, him refering to the other races of the horde instead of lumping them all together (like saying the Tauren are Honorable but the forsaken are scum),


Oh you see but they are together, they are all part of one organization and their collective actions reflect on said organization.


him conceding that the horde/horde races have done some pretty dishonorable thiings but countering it with something another member of the horde did, etc.


The former would vastly outnumber the latter.
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Posted by Ujarak
Or how about when the orcs, Trolls and Tauren teramed up with Night Elves and Humans to protect the World Tree on Hyjal?


This says far more about the Alliance than the Horde, the Horde attacked Jaina's forces on sight and they also killed a Nelf demigod, yet the Alliance and Nelf forces still weren't above working with them even if the Horde were only in it to save their own skins from the demons first and foremost.


You seem to forget that it was only Grom and the Warsong who attacked on sight, and they were going against direct orders to leave the Alliance forces alone.

You also seem to be conveniently forgetting that Ashenvale was, or at least started as, a matter of self-defense. The orcs had no idea the forest was occupied. They were just gathering lumber when their peons started turning into pincushions.

Posted by Ujarak
Then there is the after math of that, during which the Tauren Settled In Mulgore, the Orcs built Orgrimmar and settled Durotar while the Trolls took the Echo Isles for the first time. This fragile peace was first broken when Admiral Proudmoore (Jaina's daddy) attacked Durotar just cause there were orcs there.


Who rightly believed the Horde would become a threat to the Alliance if left unchecked, he's been pretty well vindicated now that we know Theramore is being destroyed.


Ten years later as part of a war that was started by increasingly strained resources and Twilight Cult machinations. A war that might not have happened if it hadn't been for the Royal Apothecary Society's Wrathgate stunt ruining the already shaky foundation of peace.

Are you claiming Admiral Proudmoore knew this would happen? That he knew about the impending Cataclysm and the future actions of the Forsaken? Did he also know in advance that the Forsaken would be joining the Horde? They were, after all, still on their own at the end of TFT.
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100 Human Paladin
14455
Admiral Proudmoore MOSTLY referred to the Orcs. He had no idea Raised former minions of the Lich King would join the Horde along with say Blood Elves, Goblins, Trolls and peaceful Tauren and now Pandaren.

Not only that but a lot of Alliance posters really try and demonize the Horde then it already needs to be. I mean sheesh!
Edited by Aeluron on 5/18/2012 10:20 AM PDT
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