Spirit Question

90 Blood Elf Paladin
11470
Hey guys, I know the common rule is to stack spirit to comfort level but I am a little curious for at least a general range to shoot to. I took most of the expansion off from healing to try out my hunter after healing for the majority of wrath. Any help would be appreciated and thanks ahead of time.
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Depending on trinkets, up to 3k. You really shouldn't need more than that, particularly with all the nerfs, and if you do still find yourself struggling for mana, it's probably your spell use and resource usage.
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90 Human Priest
12360
More spirit is more better!
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85 Draenei Paladin
9190
I have to disagree with Mobanarchy. It depends largely on the content you're doing, what your gear is like, etc... but in general it won't hurt you to have "too much" Spirit for a particular fight, while it will hurt you to not have enough.

I play it safe and continue to stack it for the most part. I even use Heartsong at the moment.
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Okay, let's nip that in the bud.

No. More spirit is not more throughput. It might help you cast longer, but it will not increase the amount of healing a spell does or a group of spells. If you're not OOM at the end of the fight, you have enough mana and regen.

Stacking more spirit costs itemisation points that could be better spent elsewhere, for example Haste is your single biggest all round throughput stat with the added advantage of reducing your cast times. Mastery is good for some fights, crit for others.

There is no point stacking spirit beyond the point where you have enough mana to do the job, and if you have more than 3K spirit, you're getting to the point where you should have enough to do even hard mode content. Throw in any of the spirit proc trinkets, and you really don't even need that much.

I have 3k myself, and it was plenty even before getting HotU which I only got recently.

The OP has 2K spirit, which is considerably low, and if you're having mana problems I'd suggest dropping some of the haste. There are a number of easy to get improvements you can find by running HoT dungeons to get Justice points and drops from the same.

Head: Helm of Power from WoE

Cloak: Cloak of Subtle Lights off Asira in HoT or Flowing Flamewrath (Avengers of Hyjal: Friendly)

Chest is a bit of a dodgy one since the only easy to obtain one better is a BOE zone drop in ET off the end packs. Otherwise you'll have to hit FL or RF and hope.

Belt: Get the Waistguard of Lost Time off any of the bosses in ET or Belt of the Seven Seals (Avengers of Hyjal: Honored)
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85 Draenei Paladin
4575
I like a lot of spirit to support HR spam. 3400 is pretty comfortable.
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85 Goblin Death Knight
9585
I would start with 2.4k and then go from there. Running out? Increase your spirit. Still at full mana post-fight, lower it. Find a spot that is comfortable for you.
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85 Night Elf Druid
11245
As a resto druid in current gear, I reforge all spirit to other stats and try to counter any eventual mana problem with better judgement on when to cast.
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90 Night Elf Druid
14840
i hate spirit i reforge it to mastery since i hate spirit
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10385
I keep around 3200 combat regen before buffs, when buffs etc are applied I do fine, I use divine plea as often as possible and my arcane racial ability. I find that as long as I do those things and keep judgement up I usually don't have problem with mana even when spam casting holy radiance.
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85 Night Elf Druid
11245
05/07/2012 07:58 AMPosted by Nillie
i hate spirit i reforge it to mastery since i hate spirit


omg someone from my server, I thought Gilneas was basically dead!
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90 Night Elf Druid
5655
I was curious on this as well. As a druid I reforge all my spirit like others have posted but I skimp it pretty low. I think i'm just under 2k and have to be quite mindful of what i'm casting. The other token is that I have the haste breakpoint and lots of mastery for booming ticks. It has been an interesting balancing act since I reactivated this guy though.

Come MoP I'll probably have a lot more spirit since they are changing things around, but I tend to like heavier regen. This expansion has felt a little strange as I've leaned towards power over regen, but it has been fun.

As a sidenote, just got my 4 piece bonus and a double duration rejuv is ridiculously awesome :)
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86 Human Paladin
5020
different classes have different spirit requirements.

Holy Paladin and Holy Priest both get 80% in combat regen and are both mana limited so spirit has no upper limit of usefulness for them. 3000 base and 5000~6000 when trinkets proc/are used is good.

Druids on the other hand get most of their regen from max-mana regeneration at a certain intellect level spirit becomes redundant. so druids don't carry too much spirit. 2200 base is about right for entry level raiding.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
12445
You'll generally want to stack Xstat/Spirit as far as secondaries goes.

It might help you cast longer, but it will not increase the amount of healing a spell does or a group of spells.


Increases the number of HRs and DLs you can comfortably cast in an encounter. Holy Paladins are not GCD locked and are in no way able to spam HR outside of Ultraxion. So yes it does affect your throughput, but in a broad sense, rather than increasing the power/speed of each individual heal like other secondaries do.
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85 Draenei Paladin
9190
05/07/2012 01:16 AMPosted by Mobanarchy
If you're not OOM at the end of the fight, you have enough mana and regen.


I've never understood this argument. So if you die in real life with more than 1 dollar, you had too much money?

Never heard of insurance, or playing it safe, or being prepared for the worst? There are situations where you need to step it up and spam harder to make up for some external force that makes the healing more difficult.

The only way more Spirit is useless is if you're already healing at 100% full blast all the time (which, to my knowledge, is really only possible on a Resto Druid, although my knowledge of the other healer classes is limited to 10m normal modes so I may be incorrect).

Theoretically there is a point where extra regen would become superfluous, but it's not as cut and dry as "well if you have more than 0 mana it's useless". I say "theoretically" because I have not seen this happen since the Judgements of the Pure change went live with DS. Spirit is extremely valuable to us as raiders.

edit: I mean, if you're talking from a 5-man perspective, you're both very correct (Spirit isn't that necessary) and also really, really overanalyzing everything (5-mans are not hard).
Edited by Tail on 5/7/2012 11:01 AM PDT
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85 Night Elf Druid
8560
Tail to answer your question about "if you end with more than 'zero' mana you have too much spirit" and how that works. its a bit over-dramatic to think of it as a value of no mana. I generally like to think that if i continuously am ending fights with over 25% mana while using regen mechanics that i have too much spirit for current content. Now if im working on new content and im continuously going oom ill first look at spell usage and why it happened. but yes if you are pretty much always ending with more than 25% mana you have too much regen. that 25% gives you the "insurance" you like to have. if you need more than that then you need to look at why your raid is being so fcking stupid that night.
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85 Draenei Paladin
9190
05/07/2012 11:38 AMPosted by Starfôx
if you are pretty much always ending with more than 25% mana you have too much regen. that 25% gives you the "insurance" you like to have. if you need more than that then you need to look at why your raid is being so fcking stupid that night.


You're coming from a Resto Druid perspective, I take it?

For a Holy Paladin, Spirit isn't exactly a throughput stat (obviously) but it allows you to throttle yourself less, which basically does increase your throughput over extended periods of time. HRx3->LoD is a ridiculous amount of healing, with a very high mana expense to go with it. The more Spirit you have, the less Holy Shock you need to weave in.

Basically, mana needs and throughput needs are very intertwined as a Holy Paladin, you can't point to one number and say "okay I have X amount of mana left after a kill, I should reforge some Spirit away".

You also need to take into account the potency of each of the stats. Spirit is, with the JotP buff in 4.3, extremely potent for Holy Paladins. Haste, Mastery, and Crit are nice but to be honest, we could reforge them into Expertise and still perform adequately. If you have too much mana, it would make more sense to adjust your spell usage rather than lose a strong stat for a much weaker one.
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
05/07/2012 10:59 AMPosted by Tail
I've never understood this argument. So if you die in real life with more than 1 dollar, you had too much money?


Yeah, if your were basing your life around a strategy of say... spending time itemisation on acquiring and spending money. Any unspent money at the end of the day is wasted.

Never heard of insurance, or playing it safe, or being prepared for the worst? There are situations where you need to step it up and spam harder to make up for some external force that makes the healing more difficult.


And this is all factored in to the "If you finish the fight with mana left"

Because we are not talking Exodus here, every guild and non-guild run makes mistakes every time. Learning to raid and play your class efficiently is part of the game and when you have a good feel for your class, how to play it, and are not just stepping through the recipe that someone else told you, then you're getting to be a good raider. Yes, we all need a buffer, but the SIZE of that buffer is important to. You wouldn't want the hoover dam backing you up if your little village of 500 might have water problems. That's simply wasted investment.

Spirit on your gear isn't free, it comes at the cost of other stats - so you need to balance them. Haste is still your biggest throughput stat - if you want to actually do more healing in those "Oh !@#$" situations, haste is where it is at.

If you're in a reasonably competent run, you should not need more than 3k spirit on your gear even without trinkets and this remains true even doing some of the hard modes. At some point you will want to pick up the spirit proc trinkets, for hard modes, but you don't need them and they really are only a buffer to inefficient play.
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I can put it this way. I have 3k spirit and most normal mode fights I'll finish around 70% mana. Hard mode I'm still getting used to and finish between 50% and 70%. Passive regen more than accommodates for the amount healing more haste lets me put out. I've even switched to using Power Torrent over Heartsong, since the extra spirit proc just isn't needed.

More spirit might let you spam HR a lot more, but don't be confused, HR is actually a bad spell, which is useless in most situations or suffers chronically reduced efficiency. The fact that it does no smart healing and considers everyone in range a target, dividing down it's efficiency whether they need healing or not makes it a poor spell over all. It just happens to work well for stacked phases of raid wide damage in DS.

For instance, it sucks for warmaster before p2, it sucks for morchok unless you're melee heavy and putting most of your melee in one group. It sucks for Hagara (generally). Etc

It rocks for Ultraxion
Is very strong for Warlord and Unsleeping during stack phases

However, it's a simple fact that we have to use it because HR and LoD are our only 2 AOE heals.

You would do more healing over all chain casting LoD if it wasn't HP capped.

Anyway, what I'm saying is... more spirit is generally a cover for playing badly - you don't need it if you're a reasonably competent healer, and finishing the fight with mana generally means finishing it with 25% or more, in which case you have plenty.

Get some more haste or crit or mastery.
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