The most useful GM chat ever

90 Orc Warrior
8395
You are all so brilliant thank you for such magnificent insight.
Edited by Thrawt on 5/6/2012 8:27 AM PDT
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61 Worgen Priest
10505
05/06/2012 07:22 AMPosted by Thrawt
The GM i chatted with earlier gave me tips on how to scam gear from people. Basically just state MS>OS he says and you can take any gear you want and they can do nothing about it...

Master looter is free to distribute loot as they see fit. Be warned tho. To purposely scam people will get you in trouble. The GM's will investigate and you will get in trouble if you set out to purposely scam.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the rules a little better if you want to stay out of trouble.

http://us.battle.net/support/en/article/ninja-looting-blizzard-s-stance
What if I disagree with the way loot is distributed? Isn't that ninja looting?
No. Such disagreements are considered looting disputes, not ninja looting. A looting dispute occurs when a player loots an item for which they are eligible, but in doing so, goes against social looting practices (Main Spec > Off Spec, upgrades only, etc). While some looting disputes may be a social faux pas and can tarnish a player's reputation, they are not a violation of any in-game rule. Scams, however, are a violation, and may occasionally accompany a looting dispute.
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90 Orc Warrior
8395
nope u can just say MS>OS and the GM will interpret it as My spec >overall specs... thats how GMS look at it.
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90 Human Death Knight
10320
I think you may be misrepresenting the conversation.

However, if other players do not insist in clear loot rules when master looter is being used, yes, you can be the lowest common denominator type of person and betray their trust.

Which is why master looter was never designed to be used for PuG's as it requires a level of trust.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
10740
If you have constructive feedback about the current looting mechanics, you would want to post over in the Dungeons and Raids Forum. The Devs do not get feedback from the Support Forums on things like this.
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90 Orc Warrior
8395
MS>OS is the most common statement in wow when it comes to loot rules. Main spec > off spec for a human GM/blizzard to ignore that interpretation in a way that benefits people who scam others is wrong.
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90 Human Death Knight
10320
Main spec > off spec for a human GM/blizzard to ignore that interpretation in a way that benefits people who scam others is wrong.


But MS>OS means nothing. What is my main spec, can you tell?

Role in a group is more important than artificial declarations of "main" and "off" specs.

Also, MS>OS does not state what the winning condition is. It does not even state how to win. Do you /roll? Do you /roll 100 or /roll 235? If you /roll 100, then what is the winning number? 1 or 100 or 42?

The problem with "MS>OS" is it does not explicitly state anything that is useful. The problem is that too many players have ASSUMED what it means. Assumptions can go wrong quite fast when trust is betrayed. That is why if one wants to help avoid issues, ASSUME nothing. All the details must be stated on how items are won if Master Looter is used. Each and every run.
Edited by Maul on 5/6/2012 7:42 AM PDT
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14 Blood Elf Priest
0
Master Loot is not for Pugs. The sooner people stop joining a Master Looter raids and start realizing that there are better looting methods for pugs, the sooner people will stop coming to the forums with false claims of being scammed.

I have a pally who I tank and heal on....what's my MS?
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90 Orc Warrior
8395
your ms is what u come into the raid as the role u are checked in as. quite obvious.
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90 Undead Warlock
10800
05/06/2012 07:42 AMPosted by Thrawt
your ms is what u come into the raid as the role u are checked in as. quite obvious.


Not necessarily. I consider my paladin's main spec holy, but I also tank on her. I would only tank when the understanding was that healing was my main spec even though it wasn't the role I was performing.
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14 Blood Elf Priest
0
05/06/2012 07:42 AMPosted by Thrawt
your ms is what u come into the raid as the role u are checked in as. quite obvious.

Actually, that's not my main spec. That's my off spec. I thought that was also obvious. What if I change my role mid raid? Now what's my main spec?

There are too many holes in MS>OS which is why it is completely unsupported by Blizzard.
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90 Human Paladin
14395
05/06/2012 07:42 AMPosted by Thrawt
your ms is what u come into the raid as the role u are checked in as. quite obvious.


Obvious to you and obvious to a number of other people, but not obvious to all.

If you want to ensure that a Master Looter is fair, get them to spell it out completely, not with vague acronyms and descriptions.

The only way for Blizzard to intervene is if you are explicit in the loot rules.

Think of it as signing a contract. You don't use vague language and acronyms in a contract and if you signed one with them, you would be a fool as when someone breaks that contract, you won't have any recourse because the conditions were too vague.
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90 Human Death Knight
10320
05/06/2012 07:42 AMPosted by Thrawt
your ms is what u come into the raid as the role u are checked in as.


That is a role. But as you can see, you assume "MS>OS" is talking about roles. Do I have to assume that as well? My main spec is TANK, but my role is DPS, so by MS>OS that means I can roll on TANK gear despite running as DPS? TANK is my main spec afterall...

You see where assumptions go, they lead to differing opinions on what statements means. And this is why a GM cannot determine whose assumption is right. It does not matter if 95% of the player base has one assumption because the assumption of the other 5% is not invalidated by pure numbers. Assumptions do not win by simple majority.

"MS>OS" is useless. It might was well mean "Mushroom Soup is greater than Onion Soup".

A better way, perhaps not perfect, is stating -

"Item preference is given to your current raid role. A winner for each item will be determined with a /roll of 1-100, the closest to 100 will be the winner."

If you do not see a statement like the above, insist on it or leave the raid.
Edited by Maul on 5/6/2012 7:54 AM PDT
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69 Orc Death Knight
11095
05/06/2012 07:33 AMPosted by Thrawt
MS>OS is the most common statement in wow when it comes to loot rules. Main spec > off spec for a human GM/blizzard to ignore that interpretation in a way that benefits people who scam others is wrong.


No, it's not. Do you know why?

For starters, when people say main spec over off spec, they don't always mean main spec over off spec, but active spec over non-active spec. If my paladin is normally a tank, but is healing right now because a good chunk of the raid left and I switched to help out, which spec am I?

Second, to insist any deviation from your version of MS>OS is a scam requires every master looter to be intimately familiar with every spec of the game. I've met people who swear blind that +Int +Stam +crit cloaks are clearly intended for paladins, not warlocks. I've also met warlock players who are unaware of the subtle differences between specs, such that +haste and +crit could be considered the difference between main or off spec. That's before getting into the fun of some items nominally being for one spec, but being best in slot post-reforging.

Third, master looter is not and has never been intended for pugs. You want to ensure fairness? Run need before greed. Someone may still get something you assume you need more than they do, but at least they won't be able to do it 100% of the time. Demanding Blizzard micromanage your raid because you trusted a complete stranger with absolute power over your loot is, frankly, divorcing yourself from all personal responsibility.

Fourth, and this is the big one in my opinion, Master Looters have responsibilities other than the letter of the law. An item drops, and the roll is won by a loudmouth who's been ignoring the raid leader's instructions and irritating everyone else, but has been a solid performer in numbers and would get a minor stat boost from it -- should the item go to the second place guy, who's just barely sc#**%!# by due to low gear, but has been helpful in raid morale and would get a massive swing in efficacy by equipping it? A player is pugged at the last minute, and the Master Looter accidentally leaves out a line of loot rules -- is he scamming the new guy if he's going by the full old rules, or scamming everyone else by not doing so?

MS>OS isn't a good rule, period. Blaming Blizzard for not supporting it is unrealistic -- it doesn't protect anyone.
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69 Orc Death Knight
11095
05/06/2012 07:42 AMPosted by Thrawt
your ms is what u come into the raid as the role u are checked in as. quite obvious.


So you consider it quite obvious that your main spec for rolling is not necessarily your main spec for play?
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85 Draenei Shaman
4845
Just because a player might go into a raid as a certain role (i.e damage), it doesn't mean that it's their Main Spec. For all you know, their MS could be a tanker or a healer.

I agree though that Master Looter isn't for PuG's and that's where the Need/Greed system should be used.
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
7490
05/06/2012 07:42 AMPosted by Thrawt
your ms is what u come into the raid as the role u are checked in as. quite obvious.


First off, I don't remember "checking in" for raids. I don't see any role check pop up to officially declare my intent.

Second, you say "main spec" is the "role" you come in as. Those are two completely different scenarios, especially given that some talent trees are quite ambiguous. Feral Druid, is he a tank or DPS? Disc Priest, is he heals or DPS? Holy Paladin, is he heals or DPS?

Third, what happens if two people swap roles to be more effective? Now, are we keeping track of what that player started as?

Fourth, and above all, that's not how I define "main spec". I define it at the spec that's listed as "Primary" on Armory. Who's right? We both are (because they are both legitimate reasons), and that's why it's NOT "quite obvious".
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69 Orc Death Knight
11095

Fourth, and above all, that's not how I define "main spec". I define it at the spec that's listed as "Primary" on Armory. Who's right? We both are (because they are both legitimate reasons), and that's why it's NOT "quite obvious".


For my part, my main spec on my main character is his secondary spec -- I just get more mileage out of it, and haven't bothered fixing the primary.
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
7490
05/06/2012 07:59 AMPosted by Danvers
For my part, my main spec on my main character is his secondary spec -- I just get more mileage out of it, and haven't bothered fixing the primary.


More ambiguity? Perish the thought... ;)
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64 Tauren Death Knight
13795
...so do you see how your GM chat was useful now?

You now know to ask for specific loot rules when joining a pug which opts to use ML.
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