Rising from the Ashes

90 Human Warrior
8750
05/05/2012 03:51 PMPosted by Valeus


Well then why haven't the Elves been pumping out infants like crazy? it's been four years. If we assume the population of 60,000 that was put forward then we can assume that about half are female. And since both men and women serve in the military I imagine a similar number of men and women were killed during the third war. Thus let's say 30,000 of each sex. that means that you could have a possibility of 30,000 new infants within 9 months, assuming the same gestation period as humans. However let's account for impotence or barrenness etc... so we can say, using al iberal figure, maybe 25,000. Now that could double to 50,000 if they each had two children, not to mention twins. How is the population not growing quickly?

The onyl thing I can think of is that it takes a lot longer for a pregnancy term in Elves than in humans.


I think it's a psychological thing for Night Elves. As in it somehow Mentally hard to grasp a concept of children.


That's true, they are creatures of convenience. Although I'd think they'd skip on that for a while for the sake of...well survival.
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85 Night Elf Druid
1890
05/05/2012 03:51 PMPosted by Vyrin
You define "underdogs" by whether or not they're part of the Alliance?


Yes. The Alliance is the largest organization of Azeroth's cultures that have been around a lot longer. All members of the Alliance have civilizations that have flourished and cultures that have become refined over centuries. But more than that, all Alliance cultures are stable. Gnomish culture did not change after they lost Gnomeregan. Worgen still consider themselves Gilneans first.

The only Horde civilizations that could claim that are the Tauren(who just became civilized) and the Darkspear Trolls(who have mostly forsaken the darker part of their own culture). All other Horde races, even the Goblins, greatly changed their culture after the Orcs arrived on Azeroth. So their culture is new, in that sense...and quite unstable.

And before someone brings it up, yes, Blood Elves are "new" as well. They did not undergo a minor cultural revamp when they joined the Horde. The foundations of their civilization were shaken and they didn't find any kind of stability until after the Burning Crusade.

05/05/2012 03:51 PMPosted by Vyrin
Were they underdogs in the Second War as well?


Yes, because they were still the faction that had very little and was trying to take away from the Kingdoms that still stood and had very much.

And because the Alliance won the second war, it really just put the Horde back to square one.
Edited by Drailen on 5/5/2012 4:13 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
9985

As for the OP, the Reliquary seems to be a decent opportunity for the Blood Elves to rise to a certain prominence, if not in the world, at least within the Horde.

The Reliquary... a lot of people throw this out there. To me, the Reliquary was just Blizzard throwing a bone to Blood Elf players and making a Horde faction for archaeology at the same time. Killing two birds with one stone, essentially. I believe this was the original intention, however, lore (that I wasn't aware of until recently) says that the Reliquary is like some sort of... Blood Elf restoration group trying to find artifacts that would save the Blood Elves. However, I can't see why any race long ago would have any greater mastery of the arcane arts than the Blood Elves to create something that would be of any import to a race that not only introduced magic to Azeroth but continues to hone its craft to this day. All that aside, I wouldn't be surprised seeing the Reliquary playing some pivotal roll in the near future.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Yes. The Alliance is the largest organization of Azeroth's cultures that have been around a lot longer. All members of the Alliance have civilizations that have flourished and cultures that have become refined over centuries. But more than that, all Alliance cultures are stable. Gnomish culture did not change after they lost Gnomeregan. Worgen still consider themselves Gilneans first.

The only Horde civilizations that could claim that are the Tauren(who just became civilized) and the Darkspear Trolls(who have mostly forsaken the darker part of their own culture). All other Horde races, even the Goblins, greatly changed their culture after the Orcs arrived on Azeroth. So their culture is new, in that sense...and quite unstable.


That doesn't make them underdogs. Fascist Europe certainly wasn't the "underdog" simply because it was the product of a rapid and fundamental change in Austrian-German culture.

Your definition of "underdog" is far too broad and encompasses several PvE factions as well.

05/05/2012 04:12 PMPosted by Drailen
Yes, because they were still the faction that had very little and was trying to take away from the Kingdoms that still stood and had very much.


By this logic the Burning Legion were the underdogs of the Third War.
Edited by Vyrin on 5/5/2012 4:54 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
9985
Less harping over semantics please. Underdog: A competitor thought to have little chance of winning a fight or contest. I do not support that the Horde as a whole is the underdog... Especially considering that there are only two "competitors" to choose from: Horde/Alliance. I believe the impression Blizzard wants us to have is that the two are equally powerful. However if I had to bet I'd put it all on the Horde. The Blood Elves, on the other hand, could, arguably, be the weakest faction of all 12 factions that compose the Horde and the Alliance. Coming in close for second to last are the Draenei and the Darkspears
Edited by Tabuu on 5/5/2012 5:33 PM PDT
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90 Human Mage
13505
Ok seriously, false information or not, thread got terribly derailed. I do it sometimes to but damn. Blood Elves are an underdog of the Horde I mean their race nearly got extinguished thanks to Arthas and the Scourge. The Horde doesn't really treat the Blood Elves as a full ally ,unlike the other races. Their domain over magic is pretty high and that is their strong point which should be used for magical issues the Horde faces.

What better way for the Blood Elves to get more lore then to solve Magical issues, of course after they rebuild Silvermoon again. They deserve that much at least.
Edited by Valeus on 5/5/2012 5:36 PM PDT
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05/05/2012 05:32 PMPosted by Tabuu
The Blood Elves, on the other hand, could, arguably, be the weakest faction of all 12 factions that compose the Horde and the Alliance. Coming in close for second to last are the Draenei and the Darkspears


And the Gnomes, don't forget the Gnomes.
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05/05/2012 05:32 PMPosted by Tabuu
Underdog: A competitor thought to have little chance of winning a fight or contest. I do not support that the Horde as a whole is the underdog...


The Horde in it's parts, however, fits this description.

If you break the Horde up into its units: The Horde, the Forsaken, and the Blood Elves.

Three groups who have only allied with one another due to the need for allies, rather than to any relationship of culture.

The Alliance are allied because they have coinciding views of the world and its inhabitants. Cultural philosophies that don't clash, but mesh.

The Horde is allied because they have to compete with the Alliance.

They are underdogs united for the sake of common survival.

Destroy the Horde, and the Alliance stays together.

Destroy the Alliance, and I give it two weeks before the Forsaken and the Horde are at war with one another.
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As long as we're on the subject of procreation.

High five for Orcs being the most prolific race on all of Azeroth!

/hand up

Anybody?...
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85 Worgen Rogue
10845
05/05/2012 06:25 PMPosted by Brukk
/hand up


Okay.

/hand up
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Okay.

/hand up


/enthusiastic highfive

*CRACK*

Hells yeah!
Edited by Brukk on 5/5/2012 6:42 PM PDT
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90 Human Death Knight
1890
I think more to the point, why haven't the Blood Elves been relevant in Cata. Ironically because of the end of Burning Crusade, they made a Heel-face Turn. They are now the Horde's "Holy Light" people and for most newcomers that think Horde mean "Being the Bad guy" the Blood Elves simply don't fit.

Back in Vanilla the other Horde races had some kind of spiritual contribution to the Horde, The Orcs were reviving Shamanism, The Tauren had their one ness with nature (Druidism) the Trolls had the Voodoo (My guess is their blanket term for Holy, shadow and Arcane magic) I always saw trolls as general practitioners where other Horde spellcasters were more specialised. And it seemed odd that the Horde at the time had two decidedly evil allies of convenience (I don't think BOTH these races are evil, but even the other Horde races thought so). But now the Blood Elves can contribute the Holy light, but still be a Horde race to the Horde.

But again, If the Blood Elves had an agenda or atleast an idea of how to impact the world, it doesn't seem to fit well with where the Horde Or in this case the Orcs and the Forsaken are going, so it seemed best not to talk about it at all.
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90 Orc Warrior
10290

The Horde is composed of "outsider" races that the Alliance wouldn't take or necessarily even forgive. Doesn't matter how many military victories they have: they are the underdogs, because Blizzard will never let either faction get far enough ahead that one has clear over all dominance over the other.


The Horde have not been underdogs since Vanilla....MAYBE Burning Crusade.

In WotLK the underdog schtick went straight down the crapper. The Horde was a force every bit the Alliance's equal.

Cataclysm emphasized that point even further.
Edited by Lochnar on 5/5/2012 7:56 PM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
8750
As I've stated before in other threads I'd like to see the Blood Elves to turn into the Connoisseurs of all magics but with the fervor of a drug Addict. To be honest I liked their seeking of power through desperation aspect. It gave them flavor you didn't see in any other race.

I hope they keep bending light to their will like they did before. Although this time it's not from a sentient being. Maybe even balance the Light with the Fel energy to counteract each other or allow them to use fel magic with none of the side effects.

Then again, and please don't light me on fire for this. I would love to see Blood Elves evolve into an Angelic race. Huge wings that you could pick the color of. If they were to go straight light magic of course. That, in my opinion would be equally Bad A-word.

Something like this: http://wfiles.brothersoft.com/m/m_s/mmh6-archangel-michael_77457-480x360.jpg
Edited by Uziyah on 5/5/2012 8:00 PM PDT
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85 Human Mage
4460
The Blood Elves will be unable to rise from the Ashes due to game mechanics, pure and simple.

For Quel'thalas to rise from it's current problems would require the remaining High Elves to reunite with their Blood Elven brethren.

This will -not- happen while the Blood Elves, and Quel'thalas, remains a Horde territory, and a Horde-aligned organization. The High Elves would not accept re-unification, even if it means their own extinction (and their sole comforting thought in that, would be that it would bring the Blood Elves closer to extinction as well). The Children of Quel'thalas will soon both face the highly likely possibility of going extinct unless they join together.

However, much like the High Elves will refuse to have anything to do with the Blood Elves while they're part of the Horde, the Blood Elves will refuse to have anything to do with the High Elves while they're part of the Alliance.

In short, for Quel'thalas to ever, 'Rise from the Ashes,' it will require the Kingdom to go neutral, much like the Pandaren. There are numerous consequences and issues from this that would have to be addressed, making it a virtual impossibility for the duration of World of Warcraft.

So, don't expect happy, benefit storylines for the Blood Elves anytime soon. It's only going to get worse.
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90 Human Warrior
8750
05/05/2012 08:22 PMPosted by Elenie
For Quel'thalas to rise from it's current problems would require the remaining High Elves to reunite with their Blood Elven brethren.


What?

05/05/2012 08:22 PMPosted by Elenie
This will -not- happen while the Blood Elves, and Quel'thalas, remains a Horde territory, and a Horde-aligned organization. The High Elves would not accept re-unification, even if it means their own extinction (and their sole comforting thought in that, would be that it would bring the Blood Elves closer to extinction as well). The Children of Quel'thalas will soon both face the highly likely possibility of going extinct unless they join together.


You're not making any sense whatsoever. Fanfic?

05/05/2012 08:22 PMPosted by Elenie
n short, for Quel'thalas to ever, 'Rise from the Ashes,' it will require the Kingdom to go neutral, much like the Pandaren. There are numerous consequences and issues from this that would have to be addressed, making it a virtual impossibility for the duration of World of Warcraft.


More fanfic, no offense but I doubt not having that 1% High Elven population is hurting the Blood Elves any.
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85 Human Mage
4460
05/05/2012 08:30 PMPosted by Uziyah
What?


Problem: Not enough elves.
Solution: Need more elves.

Where do we get more Elves? Oh, there's the High Elves...

05/05/2012 08:30 PMPosted by Uziyah
You're not making any sense whatsoever. Fanfic?


Inference based on numerous facts of the lore.

We'll take the aid of the Silver Covenant to protect Quel'thalas, (and they don't represent the total High Elves either). We'll also note the fact that, part of restoring the Sunwell the first time required 200 High Elves, so there is something they possess that Blood Elves don't...

As for impending extinction, well, please see some creative statistics below.

05/05/2012 08:30 PMPosted by Uziyah
More fanfic, no offense but I doubt not having that 1% High Elven population is hurting the Blood Elves any.


Let's try some Statistic Math.

10% of Quel'thalas survived the 3rd war. Of that 10%, 1% are the High Elves.
Kael'thas took the strongest of the Blood Elves, let's say 4-5%, with him to Outland and Northrend.
Judging by how much the Wretched give the Blood Elves a problem, we'll reduce Silvermoon's Elven population by another 1%.

So, what we have left after the events of Burning Crusade:

High Elves - 1%
Kael's Elves - 4-5%, deceased or Felblood Elves.
Horde Blood Elves - 3-4%

So, the High Elves, by comparison, suddenly are equal to 1/3rd to 1/4th of the total population of Blood Elves of Quel'thalas. That's a -lot- of Elves, whose numbers would -significantly- increase Quel'thalas' population and standing forces.
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90 Human Warrior
8750
05/05/2012 08:41 PMPosted by Elenie
What?


Problem: Not enough elves.
Solution: Need more elves.

Where do we get more Elves? Oh, there's the High Elves...

There is also reproduction.

Inference based on numerous facts of the lore.

We'll take the aid of the Silver Covenant to protect Quel'thalas, (and they don't represent the total High Elves either). We'll also note the fact that, part of restoring the Sunwell the first time required 200 High Elves, so there is something they possess that Blood Elves don't...

As for impending extinction, well, please see some creative statistics below.


They weren't needed as stated by Lor'themar. Brightwing invited them on his own. They could have done it without them. Want =/= need. I could see that they're trying to patch things up but I don't see them needing the high elves help.

Assumptions based on numbers nobody knows are nothing to base an argument on. It's all hearsay.

Let's try some Statistic Math.

10% of Quel'thalas survived the 3rd war. Of that 10%, 1% are the High Elves.
Kael'thas took the strongest of the Blood Elves, let's say 4-5%, with him to Outland and Northrend.
Judging by how much the Wretched give the Blood Elves a problem, we'll reduce Silvermoon's Elven population by another 1%.

So, what we have left after the events of Burning Crusade:

High Elves - 1%
Kael's Elves - 4-5%, deceased or Felblood Elves.
Horde Blood Elves - 3-4%

So, the High Elves, by comparison, suddenly are equal to 1/3rd to 1/4th of the total population of Blood Elves of Quel'thalas. That's a -lot- of Elves, whose numbers would -significantly- increase Quel'thalas' population and standing forces.


High Elves - 1% subtract those who died, turned into wretched, died in later battles, died from withdrawls.

Not all of Kael's elves died or turned into Felblood Elves. A lot of them returned to Silvermoon after the events in BC. That doesn't include the Blood Elves that formed the Scryers, who also remain loyal to the Blood Elves of Silvermoon even though they're AH neutral in BC.

Of the 10% of the Blood Elves that survived the Scourge invasion. I highly doubt more than 30% of those died. Nobody would follow their leader to a small chance of survival with an enormous chance of certain death. The majority of the Blood Elves that stayed back in Silvermoon were probably not even warriors/military. Kael'thas took an army into outland. I highly doubt that the Army of Silvermoon was 40-50% of the surviving population. No leader is that dumb.
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