BLOOD - Tanks that gear DPS (Hit / Exp)

85 Tauren Death Knight
9825
So I've seen a few tanks do this and have a few questions for the experienced.

- Do you go for DPS on every fight?
- Obviously your survivability is diminished, are you able to gear this way due to over-gearing or due to healers being well geared, or is it just simply that DS is so easy?
- Is it worth it?
- How do you gear? 8% hit? 6% exp? etc?

Thanks in advance
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
1. No.
2. You're able to gear this way because you should have so much survivability entering DS properly geared and because your healers shouldn't be running OOM, so you can afford to give up some mitigation.
3. Depends on if your raid actually needs that DPS or not. If they don't, then you need to assess what your raid actually needs.
4. Since it's for DPS purposes, you should cap expertise first.
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86 Night Elf Death Knight
11870
The less chance you have of dying, the more you can safely put towards DPS. I personally have different "sets" of gear (ie. DPS gear with 4pT13 reforged to expertise, or with stamina trinkets, or with my off-set tank pieces with stam gems etc) that I can use to a variable extent depending on how much damage the boss puts out.
Generally, Expertise is more valuable than Hit until the soft-cap (expertise affects all your Strikes twice over until soft cap, whereas Hit effects all your attacks including Outbreak, but at half the value of Hit).
The ability to do this is due to a number of things:
- Tank survivability being relatively simple at the start of DS (with a honourable mention to H Zon'ozz, Hagara and Blackhorn), but with the current nerfs they also don't hit too hard as long as you can time your abilities to counter theirs.
- Healers having infinite mana, so you only die from spike damage (which only really occurs in a risky way in the above fights)
- Haste and player skill scales with increase DS usage to have a large impact on your survivability; you may find if you're only pushing out 6-7 DS/min and do not know how to time your cooldowns for the fight that wearing DPS gear is too much of a stress on your healers.

As for if it's worth it, adding an extra 15k~ dps to the raid is always beneficial, you just need to weigh that against the stress on your healers and decide which is better for your raid group.
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90 Troll Death Knight
15210
Actually I would go for hit first over expertise. I have been experimenting with a higher dps build and find hit capping would be more useful so your Rune Strike won't miss since it can't be parried or dodged. Plus if it doesn't miss it has a better chance of resetting your death runes through runic impowerment.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
If DPS gear is adding 15k to your DPS, you should probably go back and check what you're doing normally.
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86 Night Elf Death Knight
11870
Admittedly it depends fight to fight and some are closer to a 10k increase (and some can be higher), but for myself personally on the fights I do it on it's an increase from 20k~ to 35k~.
If you have a smaller or larger increase to your DPS, you should be weighing that number instead.
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90 Gnome Death Knight
13155
Normal DS, yes, dps gearing is fine. Once you get into heroic modes, there are a couple of fights that need a bit more actual tanking gear (as mentioned already, Snorelord ZZZzzz..., Hagara, and Blackhorn)

I'm able to gear this way because:
A) Skill, maximizing deathstrikes does far more for survival than a little bit of gear.
B) I have bored healers.
C) Yes, DS is that easy.

Several guild first kills have been attributed to my "insane dps" so yes, worth it. (also fun to run LFR for giggles and top the dps charts)

Gearing:
Stam to desired health > Mastery to desired amount > Str > hit to spell cap (don't want outbreak to miss) > exp to softcap > hit to cap > haste
I ignore dodge/parry once I have a baseline amount of avoidance. I also steer away from crit; while it does boost dps it has no substantial affect on mitigation - haste does increase survivability marginally.

It is worth noting that I have 3 sets of gear set up for tanking:
1) Full "dps" gear. Consists of ~188k unbuffed health, 28% avoidance, and 20 mastery.
2) "Hybrid". ~200k unbuffed hp, 32% avoidance, 27 mastery.
3) "Actual tank gear". 200k unbuffed, 34% avoidance, 33 mastery.
I use "dps" for pushover content, "hybrid" for fights where the healers want tanking 4-piece or I actually need some tanking stats. And "actual tank gear" is reserved for H Hagara. We'll see if I bother to use it for any other fight.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
4715
First, no you don't gear for dps as a dk tank for every fight. You gear for tanking, and on certain fights (like Heroic Ultra) you switch your gear up a bit to optimize your dps. Do your healers a favor, stay in tanking gear.

Do not worry about gearing or geming for Stamina. This stat will come as you get gear of the appropriate item level. Parry and dodge should be over 15% (im not going to go into much detail here, do the research to figure out what's best). Expertise can be around a rating of 20, do not cap it - it is pointless to do so. Also, you do not need to worry about your Hit Rating at all; mine is at a 1% I believe.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
13630
Expertise should be greater than hit for dps as blood, by a significant margin. That is assuming your rotation is being done properly.
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90 Gnome Death Knight
13155
First, no you don't gear for dps as a dk tank for every fight. You gear for tanking, and on certain fights (like Heroic Ultra) you switch your gear up a bit to optimize your dps. Do your healers a favor, stay in tanking gear.

I think someone missed the memo, this is about dps gearing. Yes, you will take more damage, but as someone that can easily do 70%+ of their own healing, I don't think damage is an issue.

Do not worry about gearing or geming for Stamina. This stat will come as you get gear of the appropriate item level.

Stam is a "hybrid" stat for dps tanking, as it provides almost as much AP (via vengeance) as str, as well as giving you a larger healthpool, reducing healer stress. It can be completely viable and reasonable to gear/gem for it. To what extent you gear for it is largely up to you and your healers.

Expertise can be around a rating of 20, do not cap it - it is pointless to do so. Also, you do not need to worry about your Hit Rating at all; mine is at a 1% I believe.

Again, I think someone missed the memo. This is a DPS Tank thread, we are looking at gearing to put out high damage. This means we want to cap exp and hit.
Expertise is far better than hit until you are softcapped (26 exp) as you can be both dodged or parried as a tank - exp will reduce the chance of either happening. Exp is still valuable after softcap, though not quite as strong as hit.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
4715
No, I definitely didn't miss the title of the thread... Tanks that gear for dps probably aren't good tanks. If your raid needs that TINY of a dps boost from the tank, then you need to reexamine your raid group.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
05/10/2012 05:48 PMPosted by Phergas
No, I definitely didn't miss the title of the thread... Tanks that gear for dps probably aren't good tanks. If your raid needs that TINY of a dps boost from the tank, then you need to reexamine your raid group.


5-8k isn't tiny.

If your healers need that tiny bit of survivability gain, you should probably reexamine what you're doing.

A good tank knows when it's appropriate to sacrifice some survivability for the greater good. If you don't kill the boss, what good does it do for you to know that you reduced as much damage as you possibly could have?
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
7550
Default Expertise & Hit % are extremely HIGH without trying to CAP them. I have no idea why anyone would have issues with having a good %. I am at like 25 by DEFAULT.

Helmets, Weapons and a few Tank Pieces effortlessly give over 25% combined.

Like I said, I have no idea why you would need to TRY for it. Are you in Greens?
Edited by Chiyou on 5/10/2012 6:34 PM PDT
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85 Tauren Death Knight
12525
Chiyou, not everyone gets those crappy helm/gloves from VP :P.

<163 hit, 127 expertise on gear, pre-reforge.
Edited by Unhowiecow on 5/10/2012 7:30 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
7550
Chiyou, not everyone gets those crappy helm/gloves from VP :P.

<163 hit, 127 expertise on gear, pre-reforge.


Coming from someone who got spoon FED raid gear. You've never ran anything at all. SKipped VP and went from PvP to RAID gear. Like you would know. Cheers:)
Edited by Chiyou on 5/10/2012 10:15 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Sometimes, it's better just not to post.
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85 Tauren Death Knight
12525
05/10/2012 10:41 PMPosted by Euliat
Sometimes, it's better just not to post.


Though if you MUST know, I started tanking DS in about half DPS gear.
I still like to tank most bosses in DPS gear, if I can get away with it :D.
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90 Tauren Death Knight
7195
@ OP
No, You do not DPS every fights, just there ones where your survivability is not in question (Morchock tanking Kcohcrom, Ultraxion, Possibly Yor'sahj on heroic)

Normal DS is easy enough to be tanked in all dps gear given you have competent healers and a decent knowledge of your class.

It can be worth it if your group needs that extra push, but there are easier and better ways to get it done. However dpsing while tanking is a boat load more fun so if you can get away with it, do so.

If you're looking for primarily dps stats grab as much expertise as you can up to the soft cap, then cap hit. The best gear set you can use is if you run with Masterfrost gear since you won't be sacrificing an arm and a leg of survivability.

This is just my 2c of tanking that I have so far.
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90 Worgen Death Knight
9030
some people like me do it because i only tank dungeons and LFR. these days i just use dps gear if i need to do a lfr/dungeon for vp capping.

tho i did tank heroic ultraxion once with full dps gear it was quite fun.
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