Nature's Vigil

85 Tauren Druid
5435
I thought more people would be smarter about this since Ghostcrawler was pretty much screaming it out in the same post when he said "druids won't do lower damage or healing compared to other classes just because some other class has an unambiguous throughput increasing talent at level 90. Classes are balanced around their whole package."

What this means that Nature's Virgil (and Heart of the Wild's passive 6% primary stat) won't be OP, simply because we will be rebalanced by being nerfed elsewhere.
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100 Troll Druid
11585
05/09/2012 03:22 AMPosted by Tangedyn
I thought more people would be smarter about this
You give people too much credit.

They also assumed back when we had nothing useful on this tier that we would be doing less damage because we had less main role talents so go figure.
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
05/09/2012 03:22 AMPosted by Tangedyn
What this means that Nature's Virgil (and Heart of the Wild's passive 6% primary stat) won't be OP, simply because we will be rebalanced by being nerfed elsewhere.

I don't know how else to say this. I tried to explain it in another thread, where we were worried about the lack of good talents and you claimed everyone thought we'd be underpowered because we didn't have good talents. I'll grant that there are very likely people who think exactly like you suggest they do. But not everyone saying NV is OP, or that we were going to be hurt by our old crappy talents, is making the mistake of not understanding how balancing works.

My worry is precisely that we WILL be balanced around NV. A talent or ability can still be OP without making the entire class/spec OP. And that's exactly what makes for a broken or unbalanced spec.

NV is trying to be too much. It can't be both a throughput CD and a hybriditity talent. Because if it's balanced as a throughput CD it will always be used just as that, and the splash healing/damage will only be incidental.

So yes, I think NV is OP, and I think it has the potential to make for a broken class. That doesn't mean that I think we're simply going to be doing 30% more damage every 3 mins than every other class.
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100 Worgen Druid
13470
It WILL break us. There is NO question about it. If it goes live in its current implementation, ferals damage outside of berserk/NV will be reduced by retarded amounts. We'll be ret paladins with more constraints and less overall utility.

That's not even mentioning any of the other specs. There's no knowing how Balance in RBGs would work out with this. No clue how Resto would affect any of this as well. It's just too strong as is. This can't go live.
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100 Troll Druid
17295
There are a total of 6 talents you will be able to have when you hit lvl 90. Blizzard has said they want talents to be much more of a choice than anything and that they are actively working on making it so no one talent in a tier is vastly better than the other talents in that tier.

And you really think they are going to balance the class around having a specific talent?

Here's what's much more likely to happen, they will tweak NV to the point where it's insane.

PVE wise it's probably fine as is, since AoE will, as GC said, either have no benefit for a diminished benefit from this talent.

For PVP it may need to be tweaked, but really I don't think PVP is going to be about bursting down your opponent the insane healthpools we'll have at 90 (remember no number crunch).
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100 Night Elf Druid
12700
Yes, I am talking about the beta also.

all forms but Moonkin have had this added in the latest build:
now makes you immune to movement impairing effects, instead of movement slowing effects.


To me that looks like baseline, except Moonkin. I'm hoping it's just a tooltip error, but my gut says it's intended.


the whole- ''now makes you immune to movement impairing effects, instead of movement slowing effects'' Does this mean we are immune to slows AND roots while in a form? If so then that is just dumb, It takes alot of skill cap out of the class in pvp if this is the case.
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85 Tauren Druid
5435
Heart of the Wild and Nature's Virgil are supposed to be balanced by both giving ~5% performance boost. If you count 30% performance boost with 1/6 uptime, then yes, Nature's Virgil does give a 5% performance boost on average.

However you can get more than 5% if you stack Nature's Virgil with Berserk and any other available activatable buffs. Also a fight lasting 3.5 mins will see a 2/7 uptime instead of 1.6, increasing the performance boost to 8.57%

At the minimum, I think Nature's Virgil should not be allowed to stack with Berserk, just like Tiger's Fury.
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90 Worgen Druid
13940
05/09/2012 01:25 PMPosted by Tangedyn
At the minimum, I think Nature's Virgil should not be allowed to stack with Berserk, just like Tiger's Fury.


I thought it was that you just couldn't use TF while Berserk was active, but if you popped TF first then Berserk, you get both buffs and the whole idea was to dump energy, hit tf for the buff and energy gain, followed by Berserk. That's how it looks to me in game when I try it anyway.
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100 Night Elf Druid
7620
imagine that with a tree form and spamming regrowth like hell plus a vortex with a rogue and a mage ...gg
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90 Night Elf Druid
16980
It's certainly impressive looking.

But just as a question, what about the other talents? How do you feel about them?
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100 Tauren Druid
20625
05/09/2012 03:22 AMPosted by Tangedyn
What this means that Nature's Virgil (and Heart of the Wild's passive 6% primary stat) won't be OP, simply because we will be rebalanced by being nerfed elsewhere.


Problem is though, if they remove the damage and healing increase on NV... they'd have to remove the extra stats from HoTW as well.. otherwise it would be an increase over the other talents.

And I can't see berserk being able to be used with NV... they'll probably make them mutually exclusive that you can't trigger one when the other is active.
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85 Tauren Druid
5435
What this means that Nature's Virgil (and Heart of the Wild's passive 6% primary stat) won't be OP, simply because we will be rebalanced by being nerfed elsewhere.


Problem is though, if they remove the damage and healing increase on NV... they'd have to remove the extra stats from HoTW as well.. otherwise it would be an increase over the other talents.

And I can't see berserk being able to be used with NV... they'll probably make them mutually exclusive that you can't trigger one when the other is active.


Well duh. That's actually the way I preferred that it will be done. We don't really need another 3 mins throughput cooldown.

This performance buff was probably chosen to placate the people whining about Tier 6 being useless, and it's sort of working. Oh well.
Edited by Tangedyn on 5/9/2012 9:04 PM PDT
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100 Troll Druid
17295
NV has already officially been nerfed down to single target only.

tier 6 was useless, hotw is still an 'oh crap' button but now it boosts your main role a bit as well.
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1 Orc Warrior
0
Heart of the Wild and Nature's Virgil are supposed to be balanced by both giving ~5% performance boost. If you count 30% performance boost with 1/6 uptime, then yes, Nature's Virgil does give a 5% performance boost on average.

However you can get more than 5% if you stack Nature's Virgil with Berserk and any other available activatable buffs. Also a fight lasting 3.5 mins will see a 2/7 uptime instead of 1.6, increasing the performance boost to 8.57%

At the minimum, I think Nature's Virgil should not be allowed to stack with Berserk, just like Tiger's Fury.


Berserk and TF do stack.
You just have to pop them in order (TF->Berserk).
The revamp of TF and Berserk was to prevent people from pooling a full bar of energy, popping berserk, emptying, then popping TF for another near-full bar of energy while berserk is up.

The recent comments seem to presume that Blizzard and GC actually think all dps is perfectly balanced. That's a myth. I like NV a lot for feral -- not for stacking -- but because as melee dps uptime isn't always guaranteed and can be largely dependent on what the tank is doing. I like this for the same reason I prefer on-use trinkets vs. procs or equip trinkets. I can pop it during a phase of the fight when I expect to have great uptime, a burn phase, or adds that need some good burst put out.

I swear, sometimes I think expectations have been so lowered in the druid community that even when we do finally get something right -- people complain it shouldn't go live because it's "OP"
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Wonder if it's a smart heal effect for the damage done.

That would be a pretty ridiculous combination for feral PvP when combined with root (and possibly snare) immunity, whether it combines with berserk or not.

People !@#$%ed about ferals being unpeelable juggernauts before. Now we can heal our team mates at the same time.

Of course, actual full time immunity to roots is kind of over the top in and of itself, instead of having the gcd and mana opportunity cost it used to have.

Blizzard designers really have a hard time finding a middle ground without overshooting in both directions a few times first.

05/09/2012 09:03 PMPosted by Tangedyn
We don't really need another 3 mins throughput cooldown.

Maybe for PvE. It's pretty powerful and useful for PvP. Especially if the overall damage balancing still leaves you with a significant net gain during its use, say 15-20%.

In a lot of situations, burning berserk to force cd/cc usage to get into DR, then immediately following up with another 3 min burst could be hard to deal with.
Edited by Baezle on 5/10/2012 12:28 PM PDT
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1 Orc Warrior
0
If you consider things in terms of live, a lot of it looks OP. Especially for pvp.
Sure we're getting some great counters to mages -- but in light of the fact fire mages are getting even more control gaining frost abilities it's not as gamebreaking as you think.

This is what I mean by lowered expectations.

If people feel they don't need another 3min cd for PVE, you can select the other option of a straight 6% int/agility talent. Basically you have the option between an on-use cd or a straight throughput that varies based on how you like to play and the encounter. In other words, the 2 talents at lvl90 worth discussing are "working as intended" on a conceptual basis.
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
05/09/2012 03:57 PMPosted by Waraila
What this means that Nature's Virgil (and Heart of the Wild's passive 6% primary stat) won't be OP, simply because we will be rebalanced by being nerfed elsewhere.


Problem is though, if they remove the damage and healing increase on NV... they'd have to remove the extra stats from HoTW as well.. otherwise it would be an increase over the other talents.

And I can't see berserk being able to be used with NV... they'll probably make them mutually exclusive that you can't trigger one when the other is active.

I think we're having the same conversation in two different places, but whatevs.

No, they don't have to remove the stats from HotW. It seems to me like everyone is blinded by the stat boost on HotW and they're forgetting that the ability has an actual ON-USE function. A use that makes you stop DPSing for some amount of time, actually.

The extra stats on HotW serve to balance that downtime you have when you use HotW. NV doesn't need any such thing because you don't have downtime when using it.
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100 Tauren Druid
20625
05/10/2012 02:11 PMPosted by Eluial
No, they don't have to remove the stats from HotW. It seems to me like everyone is blinded by the stat boost on HotW and they're forgetting that the ability has an actual ON-USE function


Assuming you'd actually use the on use function though... remember a lot of us don't care for the on use of HoTW given in most cases it wouldn't be needed in a fight.

Sure it might be useful in 0.01% of them, but it's not something fights will be designed around using. If that is the case then the talent is a faliure as it'd force guilds to bring druids to their raids.

What I mean is, everyone would take HoTW because of the passive stats boosting dps / healing over other talents if there was no boost in the other ones. If there is a passive boosting stats in one talent, then it would automatically be better regardless of anything else if the other two didn't have damage / healing increases that are worthwhile to use in your main role.

DoC is questionable in a lot of cases and NV is a cooldown. HoTW stat gains are passive.. (I'm talking the 6% passive stats they've added in btw) and are active 100% of the time.

The point though I am making is passive stats are a dps / healing gain. It would mean everyone would take it if the other talents had nothing comparable, even if they had no intention of using the on use part of the talent. NV is not passive, it's a cooldown... so the short term increase is justified to balance out the talents.

And yeah this convo is pretty much happening on the beta forum too, but not everyone can throw in their opinions on that forum. Here they can....
Edited by Waraila on 5/10/2012 2:24 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
05/10/2012 02:23 PMPosted by Waraila
Sure it might be useful in 0.01% of them, but it's not something fights will be designed around using. If that is the case then the talent is a faliure as it'd force guilds to bring druids to their raids.

This is an assumption a lot of people are making that I'm really not comfortable taking for granted.

Fights don't have to be balanced around HotW specifically, just around having a hybrid off-healer. Every healing hybrid class has at least one talent available to them that allows them to offheal at no cost to their DPS. HotW (numbers balancing aside) now also fulfills that purpose.

NV having a throughput increase nullifies HotW as a balanced offhealing talent.

Assume you use HotW to cast a boosted tranquility. Using the same format that was used in the thread on the beta forums, for a 3 min fight, with HotW you get:
170s - 106%
10s - 0
Puts you at 100.1% normal damage. Stopping DPS for only 10s already nullifies the stat gain you got from the talent.

Looking at a more typical boss fight length, 7 mins, you see
10s use - 103.5%
20s use - 101%
30s use - 98.4%
45s use - 94.6%

For a 7 min fight for NV, not counting ANY CD stacking, you see
330s of 100% damage
90s of 130% damage
for 106.4% of normal damage. I'm actually pretty shocked at this number, tbh.

Just kind of thinking out loud (on my keyboard?), it looks like maybe HotW *is* balanced around not actually being used, which really bothers me. Which of course means that taking HotW and actually using it as a healing CD puts you at a disadvantage STILL, just one that's not as big as it was before.

The point though I am making is passive stats are a dps / healing gain. It would mean everyone would take it if the other talents had nothing comparable, even if they had no intention of using the on use part of the talent. NV is not passive, it's a cooldown... so the short term increase is justified to balance out the talents.

I feel like we (and all the others I keep having this conversation with) are just talking past each other. We keep saying the same things over and over to no effect. So now I'm just trying to figure out where the disconnect is.

This is what I said in the other thread, as what I picture the decision making would look like if NV had its throughput boost taken out:
That way, if you're sure you're not going to have to offheal, HotW becomes this cool stat boost talent. If you know you'll have to offheal, you take NV and can heal at no loss to your DPS. If you're not sure whether you'll offheal or not, you take HotW as a gamble, knowing that if you are asked to offheal, you'll more or less break even (depending on how long you actually spend healing), but if not, you got a DPS boost for that fight.


Maybe this is where we fundamentally disagree? That no one would ever take NV at that point and no one would ever use the actual HotW ability, and everyone would just take HotW and refuse to off heal?
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100 Tauren Druid
20625
05/10/2012 03:47 PMPosted by Eluial
Maybe this is where we fundamentally disagree? That no one would ever take NV at that point and no one would ever use the actual HotW ability, and everyone would just take HotW and refuse to off heal?


Pretty much.

Most people go for what makes their primary role better over offrole utility because some people don't like or care for offrole utility or do not like doing that offrole but like how they do their primary role. Sure people like that could role pures if they like dps, but again playstyles are different class to class. And there's no pure healer or tank.

05/10/2012 03:47 PMPosted by Eluial
Fights don't have to be balanced around HotW specifically, just around having a hybrid off-healer


And that's pretty much a failure of design... not everyone who plays hybrid wants to be forced into doing a role they didn't sign up for. They can't make this assumption that every hybrid dps or tank will be able to offheal. What if they had a raid setup of DK/Warrior tank, rogue, mage, lock, hunter and say a frost DK for dps? If this 10 man group needed a 4th person to offheal in a period of heavy damage then they'd have to bench someone in favour of another class.

That is against their philosophy of bring the player not the class.

If the fight was designed around 2 healers, yet you needed 2 tanks... and 6 dps... having someone shift to healing in a heavy phase would potentially trivialise a mechanic and again force people to bring a dps druid. HotW might be fine in 25 mans, but I can imagine it will be severely imbalanced in 10s.
Edited by Waraila on 5/10/2012 4:23 PM PDT
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