Why does Blizzard nerf dungeons?

90 Draenei Paladin
14925
06/26/2012 04:10 PMPosted by Nemuraan
Actually is called divine protection (yeah the 20% cooldown). Try it sometime. it works and no you will not die a horrible death.


Did you see the other part of my comment about tanks?

Just because a tank with a large health pool can turn around and put up a survivability cool down then survive a huge amount of damage does not reflect upon the rest of the groups ability to handle damage.

Or are you bragging about having tank cool downs while being a tank?
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Community Manager
Im a bit confused with these parts in comparison to that of mechanics. For myself and doing the random groups and succeeding in the majority of them, I found what was usually the key point was players willing to work together and help each other and that those who are unwilling to adapt typically resulted in failure. With that said, are you saying that in the case of players not willing to be team players, the developers will make changes even if its not the fault of the mechanics?


Generally speaking, if a majority of randoms are not succeeding, then there is some potential evidence that it's a mechanics issue either in the classes being used (and their abilities) or the dungeon mechanics being difficult or hard to understand. If we're seeing a margin of error but overall progress is "acceptable" for a large portion of players given time, we may just hang back and watch. The key is in allowing for that reasonable amount of time to go by in order to gather appropriate data to know for sure what it is that's occurring.

So let me turn this around. Does Blizzard think that it's acceptable for a dungeon to be punishing?


Sure, to a degree. We're introducing Challenge Modes in Mists of Pandaria and those will be challenging though I hesitate to use "punishing". Again, we want it to be fun, so if you feel "punished" for trying to do it versus enjoy the challenge, it can be potentially problematic getting more people interested in it. After all, we expect that those who take part are going to be doing it with friends or guildmates which should keep it at "challenging" vs. /beatheadondesk .

The thing is why make harder content for the ones you call hardcore players just to nerf it later for others to get in?


Usually the changes are done after a period of time has gone by in which most of those "hardcore" players have done the content. That's cool and all, but again, getting others the opportunity experience the content isn't a bad thing either.
Edited by Nethaera on 6/26/2012 4:22 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Warrior
0
06/26/2012 04:13 PMPosted by Noctemtenchi
Same thing to be said about the WotLK heroics at launch. Just that the tipping point at which they became easier was sooner for the WotLK heroics than it was for the Cata heroics with the later still being with 345 gear.


Ummm, people were claiming that Wrath heroics were faceroll at the launch of Wrath...

Now we're saying they were hard until people got a bit of gear?
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90 Draenei Paladin
12105
06/26/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Yilthia
Did you see the other part of my comment about tanks?


Did you see the other part of my comment about a ret pally and a non-tank warrior also being able to survive it? heck I'm pretty sure I could also survive in my holy spec. It's not bragging. it's the content being nerfed. 25% less damage from the boss, plus 20% reduction from a cooldown. The ice walls in 10-man normal deal 200k damage. So you do the math, 25% nerf to that, plus 20% cooldown, plus whatever resists from resist aura (or even just kings/mark of the wild).

It's survivable, and easily at that.
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90 Draenei Paladin
14925
Did you see the other part of my comment about a ret pally and a non-tank warrior also being able to survive it? heck I'm pretty sure I could also survive in my holy spec. It's not bragging. it's the content being nerfed. 25% less damage from the boss, plus 20% reduction from a cooldown. The ice walls in 10-man normal deal 200k damage. So you do the math, 25% nerf to that, plus 20% cooldown, plus whatever resists from resist aura (or even just kings/mark of the wild).

It's survivable, and easily at that.


Turn it off if you want a harder fight?

I am looking at the guy right now, his name is Lord Afrasastrasz. If you talk to him, he will make Dragon Soul harder for you.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
06/26/2012 01:00 PMPosted by Nethaera
We also ultimately want people to get a chance to see the content to begin with


LFR allows people to see the content.
Edited by Blackgoddess on 6/26/2012 4:32 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
06/26/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Yilthia
Turn it off if you want a harder fight?


Learn to play better instead of asking for nerfs.
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90 Draenei Paladin
14925
06/26/2012 04:34 PMPosted by Blackgoddess
Learn to play better instead of asking for nerfs.


Got the content down before the nerfs went out, thanks for asking though.
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90 Gnome Warrior
8200
Something needs to be done about the heroic Deadmines. The regular version is actually too easy, but the heroic version goes to the opposite extreme by being way too hard now! I led a preassembled group mostly of guildies into it and after wiping three times on the third boss (the one that is a giant robot) we finally gave up!
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90 Draenei Paladin
12105
06/26/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Yilthia
Turn it off if you want a harder fight?


Regarding nerfed raid content, however, you still have to soak the twilight voids. You still have to have everyone positioned correctly in Hagara's lightning phase. You can't walk through ice walls or let the tank get ice lance stacks


My response was directly to this. It is incorrect to say that after the nerfs you still can't ignore the mechanics. As a matter of fact after the nerfs not only you can ignore the mechanics but it's easily accomplished. Turning the buff off or on has nothing to do with this.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8250
Ummm, people were claiming that Wrath heroics were faceroll at the launch of Wrath...

Now we're saying they were hard until people got a bit of gear?

To explain for my reasoning is that groups would take longer than an hour due to wiping from learning the mechanics and failure to perform the mechanics and even pulling multiple packs. When compared to BC heroics, they was definitely easier, especially the trash which required little to no CC after the developers went out of their way to give more classes CC and stream line more of the CC mechanics. There was a noticeable difference in difficulty between each heroic, some was easy from the get go while others like Loken(SP?) had mechanics that could one shot players for failing to perform them properly or result in a healer being unable to keep up with the damage and result in a wipe. Later on when players got more gear they was able to make mistakes or purposefully ignore these mechanics.

Personally I would go to say that the DS heroic five mans in appropriate gear are easier in terms of leeway of mistakes than WotLK heroic launch five mans in the appropriate gear.

06/26/2012 04:31 PMPosted by Blackgoddess
LFR allows people to see the content.

Not only do they see the content, they complete the content. Big difference to me at least. I would see players who was 9/12 in T11, complain about not being able to see the content when they got to at least attempt all of the normal mode bosses. What they didnt get to do was down/complete all the content. These are the final boss of each raid after all and the gate keepers of heroic mode, doesnt mean they have to just fall over.
Edited by Noctemtenchi on 6/26/2012 4:48 PM PDT
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85 Draenei Shaman
4145
Someone a few years back leaked a few Blizzard memos, either MMO Champion or World of Raids. The first showed the time table Blizz had on all their games in the upcoming years for releasing xpacs. For example they have or at least had on the drawing board at least 2 more xpacs after Pandaria each approx 18 months apart....

The second basically showed their internal study results which stated an enormous amount of new players (something like 75%) were quitting before level 10. LOL 10! so they dumbed the game down, everything became easier from leveling to instances to now raids.

Now they will diplomatically give you a variety of solutions for this but the reality is anyone who has played since Vanilla knows that the player base has gotten younger, and as it has there has been less players willing to work hard to get what they want. No one wants to level anymore, everyone wants to power up and get all the epics now so they can stand around in IF or Org and talk smack.

And to make matters worse, its going to get worse. Every xpac means eventually they will make everything easier and easier to rush players up to endgame, players who now do not know how to play their toons because they were never forced to learn.

The potential of losing new players is scarier then the potential of losing existing players to Blizzard. If it was me? i would have catered to everyone, they have force fed a system on people. Id have vanilla, bc, LK, cata servers just like pvp or pve....Id let you roll characters at 1, 60, 80 whatever on selected servers, id even have servers where id sell you gold. No one would complain about any of these, because youd only go on those servers if thats what you wanted.

The first few years i played wow i didnt know a single player who left, now everyone i know has tried to quit wow and is just waiting for the right game to come along. And for the first time we see that Wow has actually lost players in its base... I get so bored ive deleted numerous 85s, heirlooms and everything in between to start over because the game simply isnt challenging anymore its just entertainment. And Raids? they arent hard, the hard part is coordinating your efforts. Wow is one of the easiest games ever...You watch videos, you read guides and websites, you have addons that practically play your guy for you, your on vent, your overgeared and get powerlevelled up....and then you brag about how skilled you are lol....
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
06/26/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Nethaera
That's cool and all, but again, getting others the opportunity experience the content isn't a bad thing either.


Again LFR.

I wouldn't be opposed to nerfs to the previous tier of content after a new one is released.

06/26/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Nethaera
Usually the changes are done after a period of time has gone by in which most of those "hardcore" players have done the content.


A month?

06/26/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Nethaera
The key is in allowing for that reasonable amount of time to go by in order to gather appropriate data to know for sure what it is that's occurring.


The problem is that many are now waiting for nerfs rather then trying. If they don't 1 or 2 shot something they stop and wait on more nerfs. Or are you considering this already?
Edited by Blackgoddess on 6/26/2012 4:40 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
06/26/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Nethaera
We're introducing Challenge Modes in Mists of Pandaria and those will be challenging though I hesitate to use "punishing".


And will Challenge modes be nerfed so people can "see the content"?
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90 Draenei Paladin
12105
06/26/2012 04:40 PMPosted by Sandycow
Turning the buff off or on has nothing to do with this.

Because having the buff is pointless?


Let me try this again:

06/26/2012 04:37 PMPosted by Nemuraan
It is incorrect to say that after the nerfs you still can't ignore the mechanics
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90 Orc Death Knight
18345

[quote]The thing is why make harder content for the ones you call hardcore players just to nerf it later for others to get in?


Usually the changes are done after a period of time has gone by in which most of those "hardcore" players have done the content. That's cool and all, but again, getting others the opportunity experience the content isn't a bad thing either.


I would hardly say that ~20 guilds in the US beating a fight like Spine, or 5 beating Ragnaros, is msot of the 'hardcore' players finishing content. The nerfs come way too fast for that to be the reason.

That aside, isn't this the reason you introduced the heroic/normal split in the first place? The normal dungeons are for those who want to 'experience' the content? And now we've even moved past that to LFR? Is there a reason we need these nerfs still? All it does is shorten the shelf-life of the content you produce for the average player (who may finish the 'experience' version quickly, but could at least be making steady progression on something more challenging afterwards).

I'm genuinely curious on the stance on this. What is the purpose of multiple difficulties, if the intended result is that people be able to 'experience' the content on ALL difficulties, rather than just seeing the graphics/basic mechanics/lore/whatever.
Edited by Marza on 6/26/2012 4:46 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
14925
06/26/2012 04:37 PMPosted by Nemuraan
My response was directly to this. It is incorrect to say that after the nerfs you still can't ignore the mechanics. As a matter of fact after the nerfs not only you can ignore the mechanics but it's easily accomplished. Turning the buff off or on has nothing to do with this.


Was not aware that everyone could go in when Ultraxion casts Hour of Twilight, or that you do not need to hit the button for Fading Light.

That you can just ignore the ball on Warlord Zon'ozz and let it bounce off the wall, or that you can ignore reseting his stacks of focused anger at some point.

How about ignoring the stacks if you decide to take a purple ooze on Yoj, ignoring the adds from the black ooze or ignoring the mana void.

What about ignoring the damage that goes out on the boat, or ignoring his sunder stacks and just going one tank.

I could keep going, but looks like it is time for raid.
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