Why does Blizzard nerf dungeons?

90 Draenei Shaman
13805
06/26/2012 12:42 PMPosted by Lulabells
Might be a good point with the current top Raid, but not nerfing FL enough has made the questline for the legendary staff close to impossible for people not in big guilds with lots of bored members. I started working on the staff in August of last year with my small guild, we were progressing nicely, working on Rag still not having him down when DS came out and suddenly, no amount of begging pleading or blackmail could convince anyone to go into Firelands. Ragnaros was too difficult, I heard more and more "You kidding? That fight sucks, Rag is more of a pain than anything in DS by a long shot." Offered to pay pugs, no good, nothing I've done can drum up even sporatic raids into Firelands so I sit, with 25 out of 250 souls gathered, it took months to gather the huge number of things I had to have, you can't imagine how disheartened I was to find I had ANOTHER 250 things to gather knowing how long it took to get the cinders and how hard it had been to get raids together for that.
Another prime example of a fight where the reward fails to match the difficulty. In my opinion, this is the real issue, not whether or not the current tier is nerfed.
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86 Human Death Knight
2570
06/26/2012 12:40 PMPosted by Ronduwil
explain to me how a group of players that had succesfully cleared through Alysrazor in FL when it was current was unable to successfully take out Jin'do despite two hours of attempts.


because the ghosts didn't die fast enough
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85 Worgen Druid
8575
If you explain to me how having 3 people stack on a crystal and everyone run out of a giant black pool of muck (i.e. the Morchok fight) is harder than any of those mechanics I described I will concede that these are not raid-level bosses. Unfortunately that is not the case, so I stand by my statement.


Yes, we all know that DS mechanics are easy. It's not a secret.

As for the DoT window being 15 seconds, that is wrong. You should try the fight as a ranged caster sometime.


I have. I've got each class at 85, all geared for LFR. I've done that fight SEVERAL times, believe me. The only class that has a problem with that mechanic is a hunter because they either need to sacrifice DPS significantly to be in melee range to apply that DoT or be dispelled because their single DoT cannot be reflected. Tell the rest of your group not to dispel the boss (keeping in mind that Prot warriors often do it on accident with Shield Slam).

06/26/2012 12:40 PMPosted by Ronduwil
Also keep in mind that if Dark Command isn't interrupted when you should be "dancing in and out of the beam" you will be prematurely removed from the beam and fail.


A 5 second cast time that both the tank and any DPS in the group are able to help interrupt. Other than those two whole mechanics, the fight is a tank and spank. It's not hard. People are stupid.

06/26/2012 12:40 PMPosted by Ronduwil
In 10-man raids you generally have 3 or 4 people who need to intensely focus on mechanics and everyone else just stacks and runs when and where they're told.


Everyone in a raid (pre-nerf and pre-heroic-modes) needs to be focusing or you cause a wipe. Also you're once again focusing on a tier that is generally accepted as having easy mechanics.

06/26/2012 12:40 PMPosted by Ronduwil
explain to me how a group of players that had succesfully cleared through Alysrazor in FL when it was current was unable to successfully take out Jin'do despite two hours of attempts.


Easy - They don't know the fight mechanics.
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Community Manager
05/30/2012 05:12 AMPosted by Zoroff
My question is why does Blizzard nerf heroic dungeons, i mean at first they are hard but what people don't realize about them is that you gear up. Hard is good and i'm sure most people don't want an easy game but a hard game that takes skill.


It's about balance as always. We have a variety of people who play the game and we have to keep in mind what constitutes challenging and what constitutes frustrating and find a way to move frustrating back in line with challenging. Then from there, we run into different ideas of what challenging is.

So, we have to take a look at where the trouble spots are, investigate who is making it through and who is having difficulty. Beyond that, it then gets down to the nitty gritty. Is it simply a class issue? Is it a mechanic issue? Is the dungeon overall just too difficult for a variety of class combinations to get through? At what point do people "give up" or just flat out leave or not even attempt the dungeon to begin with?

Once we determine what is the "core" contributing factor, the designers decide on a course of action. Sometimes that course of action is to alter the dungeon itself and make it more accessible. We want the game to be fun. We want people to feel like they can accomplish the task at hand without it being a painful endeavor. We also ultimately want people to get a chance to see the content to begin with. The idea of creating a "piece of art" is to share it with others. The same is true for the various aspects of the game. While there may be aspects of the game that are less accessible for one reason another to a wide array of people, something that's considered a key aspect of the available gameplay is not something we want to heavily restrict or hold people back from.
Edited by Nethaera on 6/26/2012 3:19 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Druid
8575
06/26/2012 12:42 PMPosted by Lulabells
Might be a good point with the current top Raid, but not nerfing FL enough has made the questline for the legendary staff close to impossible for people not in big guilds with lots of bored members.


You should look into OpenRaid.

06/26/2012 12:54 PMPosted by Vyndal
I like Ultraxion but i hear it sucks for people who experience any amount of lag at all.


It sucked for anyone that knew how to click a button at the proper time as well. It's pretty boring for tanks, even in Heroic mode.
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90 Troll Druid
15050
That amazing grey line between too easy and too hard but actually ends up players being too lazy or the content being too time consuming.

06/26/2012 01:00 PMPosted by Nethaera
We also ultimately want people to get a chance to see the content to begin with. The idea of creating a "piece of art" is to share it with others.

Just don't remove the sense of accomplishment that comes with something being difficult and we will be fine. Players should be able to lose if they are doing it wrong or badly.

☺ Reveries ☻
Edited by Reveries on 6/26/2012 1:07 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Druid
8575
06/26/2012 01:00 PMPosted by Nethaera
So, we have to take a look at where the trouble spots are, investigate who is making it through and who is having difficulty. Beyond that, it then gets down to the nitty gritty. Is it simply a class issue? Is it a mechanic issue? Is the dungeon overall just too difficult for a variety of class combinations to get through? At what point do people "give up" or just flat out leave or not even attempt the dungeon to begin with?


Would it be fair to argue that the 4.0 dungeons were good from the difficulty standpoint, but player skill and expectation had just degraded to the point of "I don't want to take time to do dungeons since I only want them for points"?

If so, wasn't that a problem with the Justice / Valor point system and not dungeon difficulty and why those systems have been changed in Mists of Pandaria to include various other ways to aquire them?
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
05/30/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Hume
This is a sad oversimplification. What people want is NOT TO FAIL. Or at the very least not to fail because some stupid moron they don't know is screwing up. So if the failure rate becomes too high they revolt.
Well-said. It's not that necessarily that the difficulty is too high. It's the fact that even if nine of us are performing to perfection it just takes one person to make everyone fail. That's why nerfs eventually happen. Because the raid leader's wife or his best friend or his boss from work will pretty much make the instances undoable until they get nerfed to the point where their screw up doesn't sabotage the whole group. Those of you who have never endured those conditions have no idea how it feels to see 90% of your team perform to perfection and still fail. Your response is generally to guild hop or ditch the group, but on lower pop servers there is no guild to hop to (there is no alliance guild on Sentinels above 6/8H) and/or there are friendships to uphold. Please quit complaining about nerfs to fights that you were already bored with anyways. Or buy lower level gear with your spare JPs and queue with random Pugs for a challenge. Instead of raging at the first wipe, leaving the "fail" group, and requeueing, stick it out and try to teach them something. See how the other half lives before ranting about how stupidly easy this game has become for you after doing the same content over and over for months on end.
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90 Troll Druid
15050
06/26/2012 01:06 PMPosted by Dryarae
Would it be fair to argue that the 4.0 dungeons were good from the difficulty standpoint, but player skill and expectation had just degraded to the point of "I don't want to take time to do dungeons since I only want them for points"?


They were good for 5 man groups. They were not good for 5 random people playing together.

06/26/2012 01:06 PMPosted by Dryarae
If so, wasn't that a problem with the Justice / Valor point system and not dungeon difficulty and why those systems have been changed in Mists of Pandaria to include various other ways to aquire them?


Different subject entirely valor/justice is boring. A vendor boss for loot is lame not just easy.

☺ Reveries ☻
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86 Human Death Knight
2570
06/26/2012 01:00 PMPosted by Nethaera
While there may be aspects of the game that are less accessible for one reason another to a wide array of people,


I'm trying to think of one...
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16450
06/26/2012 01:06 PMPosted by Dryarae
So, we have to take a look at where the trouble spots are, investigate who is making it through and who is having difficulty. Beyond that, it then gets down to the nitty gritty. Is it simply a class issue? Is it a mechanic issue? Is the dungeon overall just too difficult for a variety of class combinations to get through? At what point do people "give up" or just flat out leave or not even attempt the dungeon to begin with?


Would it be fair to argue that the 4.0 dungeons were good from the difficulty standpoint, but player skill and expectation had just degraded to the point of "I don't want to take time to do dungeons since I only want them for points"?

If so, wasn't that a problem with the Justice / Valor point system and not dungeon difficulty and why those systems have been changed in Mists of Pandaria to include various other ways to aquire them?


I think the biggest problem with that is, that's all the playerbase who wants easy content had to do. They couldn't do other things, the only way to play end game was to run those heroics, and they just weren't good enough. Challenge modes in MoP look like they'll be harder than 4.0 heroics but it won't matter because every player will have something to do, Blizzard tried to force every kind of player into 4.0 heroics and it didn't work.
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90 Human Paladin
12290
06/26/2012 01:04 PMPosted by Reveries
Just don't remove the sense of accomplishment that comes with something being difficult and we will be fine. Players should be able to lose if they are doing it wrong or badly.


If that sense of accomplishment is based on excluding the great majority of the players, then Blizzard will not provide it to you in anything but a small hardcore playpen that is not central to the game experience.

If you don't like that, perhaps you could find a niche game somewhere that caters exclusively to your kind of person.
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90 Troll Druid
15050
Please quit complaining about nerfs to fights that you were already bored with anyways. Or buy lower level gear with your spare JPs and queue with random Pugs for a challenge. Instead of raging at the first wipe, leaving the "fail" group, and requeueing, stick it out and try to teach them something. See how the other half lives before ranting about how stupidly easy this game has become for you after doing the same content over and over for months on end.

So you think because the players are bad they should make the game easy? What if the players aren't bad they are lazy. If players are just being lazy than no matter how easy the dungeons get they will simply do just enough to get by and blizzard will continue to make things easier to keep them from failing.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
In 10-man raids you generally have 3 or 4 people who need to intensely focus on mechanics and everyone else just stacks and runs when and where they're told.


Everyone in a raid (pre-nerf and pre-heroic-modes) needs to be focusing or you cause a wipe.


If by "focusing" you mean following the guy with the diamond over his head for 90% of the fight and stacking on the big red pillar for the other 10%, I guess you're right.
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1 Dwarf Warrior
0
Beta is opt-in, if your interested you submit your system information and the game universe of blizzard your interested in.

ds nerf should have been the same way, by default nothing changes but if you feel you need the nerf than you go talk to npc and OPT In for it.

atm there is absolutely no discussion about whether to turn off 25% nerf in ds among pugs.
i am not saying opt in system will definitely improve thing but at least people will say ok guys i am gonna talk to npc and put 25% nerf on, atleast there will be a discussion than instead of a buffet meal which is forced on you (in pug context)

some of us like a challenge but we cant do anything if automatically a raid gets nerfed, if it was opt in we could get chance to voice our opinion to raid that its not needed.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16450
06/26/2012 01:11 PMPosted by Osmeric
Just don't remove the sense of accomplishment that comes with something being difficult and we will be fine. Players should be able to lose if they are doing it wrong or badly.


If that sense of accomplishment is based on excluding the great majority of the players, then Blizzard will not provide it to you in anything but a small hardcore playpen that is not central to the game experience.

If you don't like that, perhaps you could find a niche game somewhere that caters exclusively to your kind of person.


How is it excluding anyone? If you want a game where everyone is equal and doesn't have to use common sense to accomplish anything, why don't you go find a niche game that caters exclusively to your kind of person? Maybe hello kitty.
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90 Draenei Paladin
12105
If you explain to me how having 3 people stack on a crystal and everyone run out of a giant black pool of muck (i.e. the Morchok fight) is harder than any of those mechanics I described I will concede that these are not raid-level bosses. Unfortunately that is not the case, so I stand by my statement.


I don't get why are you comparing Cata launch heroics with Dragon Soul bosses. A much fair comparison would be compare HoT heroic bosses to Morchok and Cata launch heroics to Magmaw, Halfus or Omnotron Defense System. And no, you cannot possibly convince me (or anyone else) that Corla is easier to screw up (therefore harder) than Magmaw/ODS/Halfus.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8250
It's the fact that even if nine of us are performing to perfection it just takes one person to make everyone fail. That's why nerfs eventually happen.

So that just showcases that nerfs happen because of a minority that cause the game to be frustrating for the majority. I did not have a problem in the majority of the heroics at launch as solo queue and as a healer. If we had an issue it was usually because of one or two players who just did not want to be team players in group based content. All they cared about was getting their gear/points and would get frustrated with others if the run wasnt perfect, even if it was their own mistakes or unwillingness to work together that would cause issues.

Is it really fair to say that the majority of the playerbase just wants mindless grinds/content or is it really just that they are tired of having to deal with a minority of selfish players that make playing the game frustrating for those who actually try?

06/26/2012 01:06 PMPosted by Dryarae
If so, wasn't that a problem with the Justice / Valor point system and not dungeon difficulty and why those systems have been changed in Mists of Pandaria to include various other ways to aquire them?
06/26/2012 01:06 PMPosted by Dryarae
If so, wasn't that a problem with the Justice / Valor point system and not dungeon difficulty and why those systems have been changed in Mists of Pandaria to include various other ways to aquire them?

Or about a system that offered high rewards for old content and expected everyone to run content they vastly out geared to the point that mages could tank stuff that used to splat tanks. Asking players to do such for a year where they would continue to put in less and less effort and throw in a gear reset to them, well not going to be surprised that may could not handle the rapid shift back to no longer being over powered.
Edited by Noctemtenchi on 6/26/2012 1:24 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
14370
05/30/2012 05:12 AMPosted by Zoroff
Hard is good and i'm sure most people don't want an easy game but a hard game that takes skill.


So did we learn nothing from Cataclysm's launch heroics?
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16450
Hard is good and i'm sure most people don't want an easy game but a hard game that takes skill.


So did we learn nothing from Cataclysm's launch heroics?


We learned that there needs to be more than just heroic dungeons for content, not sure what else there is to learn. Or do you think difficulty was the biggest problem and not the fact all people could do was those dungeons?
Edited by Sensations on 6/26/2012 1:18 PM PDT
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