Why does Blizzard nerf dungeons?

90 Draenei Shaman
13805
06/26/2012 02:38 PMPosted by Dryarae
Now explain Corla and then look at the difference in length of the explanation and you might get my point.
I already explained Corla. Length of explanation has no bearing on a fight's difficulty. The reason Nefarian has a longer explanation is that it's a 10-minute fight with three phases. Like I said, 70% of the party only has to think for about 20 seconds of the fight. The rest of the time success only depends on the crucial 30% performing their respective roles (which ultimately boil down to good positioning). The rest is "follow the stacking point." Corla is a 3-minute fight with one phase, but the whole time 60% of the raid has to be watching their stacks and moving as needed and 40-60% of the raid has to interrupt Corla to make sure her Dark Command doesn't go off. In my opinion 3 straight minutes where 60% of the group maintains full vigilance is easier than 20 seconds where 100% of the group maintains full vigilance followed by a drawn out DPS race where only 30% of the group has to think. I would rather carry someone through a raid than a heroic starter dungeon any day of the week.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
0
06/26/2012 03:20 PMPosted by Noctemtenchi
Blizzard was happy with that until they sank a bunch of money into developing Molten Core only to realize that only 2% of players ever saw it. At that point they saw the error of their ways and applied reason to their player expectations.

When did the developers say MC was the reason?


It was part of the original discussion concerning rebooting Naxx at the beginning of Wrath. Then they've flip flopped on how to accomplish the right balance for the last 4 years.

They're currently closer to the tier 7 paradigm atm, with a hair of the "end of Wrath" paradigm thrown in.
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90 Troll Druid
15305
I'm not sure that I can agree with a definition of "social" that makes game difficulty the sole driver of friendship and communication. That actually seems rather anti-social. Being a social game also means playing with people at various skill levels. Otherwise you're not in a social game, but in a league. If, despite many attempts at communication, a friend is still unable to grasp the mechanics of a fight you are left with the anti-social options of ditching them for a capable stranger or calling it quits on the game. If you don't nerf dungeons you force players to choose between being social and quitting outright. There's more money in keeping the game social by nerfing content.

My point is mechanics can contribute to the social aspect. I was mentioning this as one of the benefits to having things be less auto-pilot.
Difficulty was, indeed, the biggest problem and it's why many many players left. I know from personal experience.
This varies from person to person I can honestly say players i played with left because the game was becoming to easy.
Blizzard was happy with that until they sank a bunch of money into developing Molten Core only to realize that only 2% of players ever saw it. At that point they saw the error of their ways and applied reason to their player expectations.

Yes but there is not a requirement for something to be incredibly difficult or ridiculously easy. There is a such thing as common ground.
06/26/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Dorrell
Yep, because communication like; Sheep star, fire center, dispell Y, and the like is really high brow social communication and interaction that would make Paris Hilton excited to be alive.
You don't get it its obvious. I say requiring limited communication encourages players to communicate. You say face roll auto-pilot encourages players to communicate because they don't have to focus on what they are doing.

FACT-Content was nerfed because random player composed groups dont play together as well as non random groups.

Content made to easy is not fun. It just becomes one more thing you feel you need to do to cap out what ever you are working on.

If you don't understand the benefits of requiring a group to communicate or the benefits of things having a limited amount of challenge I don't think I can reasonably discuss this issue with you.

I know if wow continues to give me 1000 things to do that require no effort I will eventually leave the game. I can't commit to a HC raiding schedule so I try to find fun and enjoyment threw other means. I find things that are challenging to be more fun then things that are simple.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
0
06/26/2012 03:25 PMPosted by Reveries
You don't get it its obvious. I say requiring limited communication encourages players to communicate. You say face roll auto-pilot encourages players to communicate because they don't have to focus on what they are doing.


No, we're on the same page. It's just what you call faceroll I call social friendly, relaxing, and fun. Tough content has it's place, but not when I want to goof around and socialize.

You're arguing about a happy medium when assuming that the medium can only be placed by your standards and not the statistical median that Blizzard is using. Which falls closer in line with my darts on the board.

You keep using words like; easy, faceroll, etc. I personally like that level of content, however I've also done several of the tougher content in the game. So, where do I fit in. I find everything in the game fun for "It's appropriate pigeon hole and purpose."

Hard content is meant to be hard, however there needs to be a little of everything. In placed, you think faceroll content is boring and forces people to leave. 4.3 fits that description, people are STAYING, where when the all-mighty "challenge" was in place people ran off like mad.

There has to be everything, and right now it's close. MoP appears to be even closer to this goal.
Edited by Dorrell on 6/26/2012 3:36 PM PDT
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Community Manager
06/26/2012 01:08 PMPosted by Reveries
They were good for 5 man groups. They were not good for 5 random people playing together.


This is a very good statement. I have often said that World of Warcraft has a lot of working parts and part of making development changes and balance is in being able to discern which parts need a little extra greasing to work better. There is also a distinct difference between a random group vs. a guild group or group of friends working together. While skill plays a part, so does understanding the people you're playing with and making what they do/how they play work for the group. If you aren't able to adapt to that, or the mechanics of the dungeon make adjusting too difficult, then it's another flag that perhaps something isn't working as well as it should be to allow that progress.

Again, people do want challenge, but challenge is different for everyone. Understanding where the limits of human patience are is important. For example, I'm more apt to stubbornly keep going up against something until I get it right no matter how long it takes, (give it a break maybe now and then) but go back to it so I can "beat" it. Others may give something a try once or twice then give up. In this case, our tolerance levels for "failure" or anticipation of gaining success at some point are a bit different.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8250
06/26/2012 10:47 AMPosted by Ronduwil
These were the "starter" heroics for Catalcysm, and they sported raid-level mechanics without dropping raid-level rewards.

So your talking about a difficulty to power reward ratio? If thats the case things like LFR and presumably the upcoming Challenge modes give that a good slap around. So far from what we know is that Challenge modes are supposed to be more difficult and require more coordination and planning then the heroic dungeon five mans. The general assumption based on how it is handled now is that LFR will be no harder than the five mans as it is now along with players being able to afk their way to even more powerful loot than from heroic five mans. Now this seems quite acceptable to the developers that players can do such like afk and collect more powerful rewards all because its a "raid" and yet some how a five man group where players put in more effort and team work is rewarded with cosmetic gear that on a power level is worthless compare to even questing gear.
06/26/2012 03:31 PMPosted by Nethaera
so does understanding the people you're playing with and making what they do/how they play work for the group. If you aren't able to adapt to that, or the mechanics of the dungeon make adjusting too difficult, then it's another flag that perhaps something isn't working as well as it should be to allow that progress.

Im a bit confused with these parts in comparison to that of mechanics. For myself and doing the random groups and succeeding in the majority of them, I found what was usually the key point was players willing to work together and help each other and that those who are unwilling to adapt typically resulted in failure. With that said, are you saying that in the case of players not willing to be team players, the developers will make changes even if its not the fault of the mechanics?

Ive spent a lot of my own personal time helping other players become better players for both the success of the run and the betterment of the community as a whole. With many years of dealing with PuGs I am quite aware there is a difference between a preform and a random PuG. The majority of the failures I have come across are dealing with those who are unwilling to accept help and instead would rather have the rest of the group put in the extra effort or as the so called majority like to call it "work." Doesnt make for such fun game play on my end, it instead makes it frustrating dealing with players who only concern themselves with the reward and not what sit between them and the rewards.
Edited by Noctemtenchi on 6/26/2012 3:50 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
12220
The thing is why make harder content for the ones you call hardcore players just to nerf it later for others to get in?

Its technically the same content as the normal version with the same story line. Only difference is gear and maybe a few abilities on bosses.

I also agree with Sensations. Once you had hit 80 there was nothing to do except professions (arch), pvp and dungeons to progress your character. It was basically forcing you to do dungeon after dungeon. Sure a dungeon should have difficulty but it should not be crammed down your throat as one of the only things to do.

The biggest problem with cataclysm heroic is they followed the wrath expansion. If cata had followed the Burning crusade heroics there would have been less complaining due to being use to difficult dungeons. (honestly none have been difficult in any expansion)
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90 Troll Shaman
12220
06/26/2012 03:36 PMPosted by Noctemtenchi
These were the "starter" heroics for Catalcysm, and they sported raid-level mechanics without dropping raid-level rewards.

So your talking about a difficulty to power reward ratio? If thats the case things like LFR and presumably the upcoming Challenge modes give that a good slap around. So far from what we know is that Challenge modes are supposed to be more difficult and require more coordination and planning then the heroic dungeon five mans. The general assumption based on how it is handled now is that LFR will be no harder than the five mans as it is now along with players being able to afk their way to even more powerful loot than from heroic five mans. Now this seems quite acceptable to the developers that players can do such like afk and collect more powerful rewards all because its a "raid" and yet some how a five man group where players put in more effort and team work is rewarded with cosmetic gear that on a power level is worthless compare to even questing gear.


There we have it. Why would I want to do challenge dungeons just for transmog/vanity gear?
I want and yes I said want to be rewarded for doing challenging things by making my character stronger. Not to make him look "cooler" or give him an achievement that means little when I decide to reroll to a diff class.

I wonder how useful dungeons will be once people get thier Ilevel for Lfr even if its a "fake" Ilevel.
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90 Troll Druid
15305
06/26/2012 03:31 PMPosted by Nethaera
I'm more apt to stubbornly keep going up against something until I get it right no matter how long it takes, (give it a break maybe now and then) but go back to it so I can "beat" it. Others may give something a try once or twice then give up. In this case, our tolerance levels for "failure" or anticipation of gaining success at some point are a bit different.

I am like this as well. I do understand wiping on a boss for 3 hours is not fun all the time.

Really what it comes down to for me is this.

I believe blizzard should encourage players in random groups to communicate better instead of nerfing content to the point that you don't need to communicate. I think if 4.0 was not nerfed players would have adapted and became better for it.

But... I imagine less players would have seen the dungeons.
Edited by Reveries on 6/26/2012 3:49 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
15305
There we have it. Why would I want to do challenge dungeons just for transmog/vanity gear?
I want and yes I said want to be rewarded for doing challenging things by making my character stronger. Not to make him look "cooler" or give him an achievement that means little when I decide to reroll to a diff class.

I wonder how useful dungeons will be once people get thier Ilevel for Lfr even if its a "fake" Ilevel.


I am excited for challenge modes but have no interest in the transmog rewards. I enjoy a challenge but cant dedicate the time to raid heroic. This will truly be a test of I want it to be hard I don't need something better for it.
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90 Draenei Paladin
12105
06/26/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Ronduwil
You can't walk through ice walls or let the tank get ice lance stacks


Funny that you mention those, I've personally popped a cooldown and walked THROUGH the ice wall to dps the crystal behind it to make the phase end faster when tanking hagara. More than once. I also routinely eat the ice lance stacks because the pugs I get just fail at having ranged stand in front of them (same issue as corla I guess? omg a beam, must run away from it)

06/26/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Ronduwil
You never even saw raiders running dungeons because it wasn't worth their time


No, you never saw them running dungeons ALONE. They queued with their guilds, steamrolled the place using proper tactics/communication and walked away with easy valor. It was actually crucial during the first few weeks when you didn't have the entire content on farm and you still wanted to cap valor and/or needed certain pieces (there was a healer trinket in halls of origination for example that was just too good not to have, so people ran it even while raiding)

06/26/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Ronduwil
So you spent 3 hours pugging Grim Batol and had 70 VP to show for it once per day because you could only get the reward once per day rather than seven times a week like now


Who would have thought, you had to actually put some effort to get a reward. What a novel concept. Besides I don't know why, but it never took me 3 hours to finish GB. Maybe because I wasn't trying to be carried to free gear and bothered with researching not only my class but my role as well? Yes, I did CC every trash pull for GB. I never ever had "wipe fests" on it. The bosses were amazing because they all had simple stupid checks.

If you're not on the ball, you die. If you die, your group dies. It's a group effort. Either everyone does their job, or no one gets rewards. It was not a "tank and healer carrying 3 guys who are asleep" affair. But people don't want that. They want to be carried. They want to go afk for sandwiches and go back to find they won epics. And that's why the dungeons are the way they are. It doesn't mean the design is bad. The design was great, it rewarded group play and learning your class's strengths in order to be an asset to your party. Except people don't want to be team players. They just want to get in, "earn" their free loot and go /afk in Stormwind.
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85 Human Mage
1165
Cata 5-mans aren't easy when you're not overgeared for them. Once you know the mechanics and have Hour of Twilight gear, then yeah, of course they're going to be a cinch.

I'm guessing DS Heroic nerfs is because MoP is coming out and they don't want people whining about not having DS finished or something. Blizzard seems to have certain expectations for how many people should have experienced the content and cleared it within a certain timeframe. If that expectation isn't met, they nerf it.
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90 Tauren Druid
19490

I am excited for challenge modes but have no interest in the transmog rewards. I enjoy a challenge but cant dedicate the time to raid heroic. This will truly be a test of I want it to be hard I don't need something better for it.


My biggest concern is that they will ultimately follow the same drift they have been for the past few years and make challenge modes "accessible" for everyone.

I do consider myself a bit of an elitist but I am also realistic and think the changes to make raids more accessible was a good one, I am nervous about the behavior of nerfing heroic raid content that happened in Firelands, and while I realize the Power of the Aspects buff follows the same method as the ICC buff, ICC also felt, to me, to be tuned with that buff in mind whereas Dragon Soul heroics weren't super challenging without the buff (pre-nerf Spine not included in that statement)

I guess, in short, my question is this. Are Challenge modes going to be difficult and STAY difficult, no matter what happens, or is this yet another feature that will ultimately be subject to the cries of "it is too difficult for players who don't have a guild or a bunch of friends that play to find groups for these" and ultimately they'll be LFD jokes as well?

My hope is that because they do not give any gear that Challenge modes will be exempt from being made "accessible" and will ultimately be the thing that hardcore players who enjoy the level of difficulty most would call masochistic will have to occupy their time. (Not that I am all that hardcore, but I understand the position those players have been in since raid content became easier than walking and chewing gum)

06/26/2012 03:58 PMPosted by Thedras
Cata 5-mans aren't easy when you're not overgeared for them. Once you know the mechanics and have Hour of Twilight gear, then yeah, of course they're going to be a cinch.


Cata heroics might have been difficult in LFD, but if you had even a semi-organized and competent group they were pretty simple from the beginning, even before the nerfs.

I do realize that "easy" is a subjective term based on the perspective, skill level, and dedication of the person making the observation, so I'll add that I was at the time a fairly casual raider and prior to Cata I had cleared all normal content in WotLK and some hardmode content.

Anyhow, I was able to start Cata heroics the day after I hit 85 with normal dungeon blues and do just fine as a tank, I know healers had it rougher but my two brothers who were DPS had no trouble at all unless they were dumb enough to stand in fire.
Edited by Druidjezus on 6/26/2012 4:05 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
15585
06/26/2012 03:51 PMPosted by Nemuraan
Funny that you mention those, I've personally popped a cooldown and walked THROUGH the ice wall to dps the crystal behind it to make the phase end faster when tanking hagara.


Yeah, its called Divine Shield and we take no damage when it is up. After all any instance of X minus X is always zero.

However, a tank being able to walk through and take a large amount of damage does not indicate something is generally survivable.

06/26/2012 03:51 PMPosted by Nemuraan
Who would have thought, you had to actually put some effort to get a reward.


Sitting in trade for several hours typing "/2 LFG role for dungeon" and reading a book is about the same amount of effort as talking.
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90 Draenei Paladin
12105
06/26/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Yilthia
Yeah, its called Divine Shield


Actually is called divine protection (yeah the 20% cooldown). Try it sometime. it works and no you will not die a horrible death. I've seen rets do it as well. I've seen a warrior also do it with shield wall. A non-tanking warrior.

Yeah I guess if you don't know your class and just try to walk through it it's lethal. If you actually use your cooldowns, any class can walk through the ice walls now.
Edited by Nemuraan on 6/26/2012 4:14 PM PDT
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I just wanted to chime in here as a blue appears to be reading.. and this is about 5mans in a general sense

Feedback - Tank perspective (and sorta as a hunter MD pulling)

Directed@Trash packs in BRC and Vortex Pinnacle.

With regards to pulling and grouping mobs, especially once past the undergeared stage of CC all but 2 in a 3-5 mob pack... Having a group of mobs with multiple casters is rather annoying.

Specifically, the trash right after Karsh Steelbender are usually a 4-6 mob caster pack with at LEAST 4 casters in it. (the fire elementals and the Borers .. I think thats the name)
And the trash in the beginning of VP, involving multiple minicasters.

None of these are really *dangerous*.. but just annoying to pull.

Preferred method of fixing(In no particular order of need):
A. Do not allow more then 2 caster mobs per pull
B. Add a small cooldown to whatever the mob casts, ergo lightening bolt, to be aprox 3-5 seconds CD inbetween each cast, so that the mob moves and positions more smoothly.
C. Implement more effective tank pulling methods - For example, if you deathgrip a mob that is casting, successfully interupting it, your DGrip CD is reset. -- Similar effects to Heroic throw.. an implementation of some sort of ranged silence/pull for Feral druids would be GREATLY appreciated....

Note; I will agree that paladins are in the LEAST needed fixing with respect to multi-caster mob pulls, Shield throw+Silence is an amazing tool.
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and just to add onto my previous post --

I *really* hate queing for a random dungeon and getting the HoT's. I LOVED how wotlk dungeon queing worked with the separate ques.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8250
06/26/2012 03:58 PMPosted by Thedras
Cata 5-mans aren't easy when you're not overgeared for them. Once you know the mechanics and have Hour of Twilight gear, then yeah, of course they're going to be a cinch.

Same thing to be said about the WotLK heroics at launch. Just that the tipping point at which they became easier was sooner for the WotLK heroics than it was for the Cata heroics with the later still being with 345 gear.

06/26/2012 04:10 PMPosted by Jeslis
Preferred method of fixing(In no particular order of need):

I would like to add that for a number of pulls, there wasnt that many good LoS points and some of which ended up being more of a problem then helpful. Yes I said LoS, something that does wonders with ranged groups and something of which many of groups would talk to me as if I was stupid and not the person who is in charge of keeping the group alive including myself.
Edited by Noctemtenchi on 6/26/2012 4:18 PM PDT
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