Delaying Raiding in MoP

90 Blood Elf Paladin
13990
The idea is to release the expansion faster without raids instead of waiting to release the expansion until the raids are ready. In other words, Raids would be available exactly at the same time, we would just access the stuff that is ready earlier.

Honestly I think it's a good idea, it will allow people who will level monk to have them ready for raiding, and not to have to live with one more month of nerfed dragon soul (so.. no content to do).

4 weeks might be a bit, but 2 weeks should be fine.. after all, people are waiting for the arena season, so why not wait for the raid tier. Level, get ready, and let the race begin.
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90 Troll Druid
13160
06/07/2012 09:26 AMPosted by Sëska
I can't get to that project just yet sir, I have to get to level 90 = FIRED


No where did I say you could do whatever you wanted without consequences.

06/07/2012 08:52 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
As far as a full time employee I'm not sure you fully understand what that means (40+ hours per week, every week, ~52 weeks a year).


Yup...9-5 or 8-4 depending on the week. I haven't had a Thanksgiving or Christmas off in almost 5 years.

Now, back on topic.

It seems to me the major argument for gated content is to do other content. I would agree with gated content if the content you wanted to do instead had an expiration date. But since I can do pet battles/scenarios/bgs, for at least 2 years (the average life span of an expansion,) I see no reason to delay raids simply to allow players to do something else that will be available for years.
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100 Human Rogue
11180
06/07/2012 09:38 AMPosted by Hudiddytoo
It seems to me the major argument for gated content is to do other content. I would agree with gated content if the content you wanted to do instead had an expiration date. But since I can do pet battles/scenarios/bgs, for at least 2 years (the average life span of an expansion,) I see no reason to delay raids simply to allow players to do something else that will be available for years.


I do not care about any of those things. I don't care about anything but raiding in WoW. I just know with my 40 hours a week there will be people who will get a head start on me and thus have an advantage in the progression raid game. It keeps the race more skill based and not more "i have a seaonsal job"/"I am a student based". Now if I was in the position where I could just grind out 85-90 in one elongated sitting I would be against gating because my ability to do so would give me a competitive advantage.

This issue isn't an issue where there is really a right or a wrong, players just want whats going to give them the best competitive advantage. I do not actually think the raid content will be gated though as it never has been in the past.
Edited by Ninjablaze on 6/7/2012 9:51 AM PDT
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100 Troll Shaman
15995
I agree with Ninjablaze.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
10525
I wouldn't mind a slight delay to raid release. 2-3 weeks might be the sweet spot. Blizzard wont be able to focus on other content though as you cant create and prepare a raid in a few weeks.

EDIT: As it is even now, there is already a delay of 1 week every patch before raiding begins. Competent raiders have to wait a week before they get to content, I wouldn't mind waiting another or two to soften the leveling/gear grind.
Edited by Xiic on 6/7/2012 10:38 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Shaman
0
So wait blizz would have an extra 2-3 weeks to focus just on raids so there is no bugs or overly easy bosses and they can focus on having fun encounters and challenging heroics with a progressive system of difficulty. Well I'm on board just for that reason alone.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12045
I disagree entirely with bringing out content before the entire expansion is ready for one reason. I don't want an incomplete product. I don't want to get to level 90 and start doing heroic 5 mans, and have a feeling of them being incomplete just because we couldn't wait another month for the full expansion to come out in it's complete form. Just because raids aren't in the beta doesn't really change anything. For all we know the stuff that's in beta is still being worked on as well. Just because it's in beta doesn't mean it's complete or even going to make it into the final release. No I want a finished product, nothing less.

Gate the content if you have to, but all content for the initial release should be completed before the sale.
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100 Troll Rogue
15880
Basically delaying the raiding for a few weeks for the more casual guilds makes them feel like they don't have to rush.

For those really hardcore top tier guilds they won't play any less they will just get 3 or 4 toons ready for that first week of normal raiding in that same time frame as well as maybe levelling a monk.

I think at the very least they will have to delay lfr for a few weeks or maybe gate it one raid a week similar to the way they only released the first half of lfr in the first week of 4.3.
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88 Dwarf Warrior
13380
I definitely love this idea and I hope that Blizzard holds off the raids for about 2 weeks after the launch. I'd love to not have to be a week behind all of my friends because I chose to level a Monk!

Also, I agree with Sabod above me. This wouldn't be bad for hardcore raiders because it'd give them time to set up their raiding alts as well.
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100 Orc Warlock
14715
06/07/2012 07:18 PMPosted by Sabod
I think at the very least they will have to delay lfr for a few weeks or maybe gate it one raid a week similar to the way they only released the first half of lfr in the first week of 4.3.


Hell, LFR release should be delayed even more than that. Preferably 1-2 months. That, or LFR gear should be made inconsequential. I don't want to feel forced to clear LFR before clearing the instance on normal.

I agree with the OP, too. There's a lot of new features in MoP that I want to try, and I don't want to feel like I have to spend every second of my free time at the start of MoP preparing for raiding.
Edited by Vreivai on 6/7/2012 8:03 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
06/07/2012 08:37 AMPosted by Hudiddytoo
Now, not having done much with the MoP beta, I can't say how long it will take to level, but judging from both Wrath and Cata launches, it will most likely be a breeze. I have been a full time student and employee during both launches, and still managed max level within a week. It takes no more than about an hour to an hour and a half per level (for me, at least.)


You're bending the truth quite a bit (or factoring in rested/heirlooms). People didn't hit 85 8 hours after launch.

And then of course we come to the actual point in the thread, that you didn't wouldn't be able to enjoy it, you're rushing. You're not taking into account any gear/professions etc, either.

06/07/2012 08:37 AMPosted by Hudiddytoo
I am going to quote a professor of mine: "You have the time to do anything you want to do in the world, it's your choice how you spend that time."


Personally, i'd rather not have to choose when i can have both for no extra cost.

Can i skip school/work and level for 3 days? Yes. Do i want to live with the consequences? No. I'd rather have both. Why not?

06/07/2012 09:38 AMPosted by Hudiddytoo
But since I can do pet battles/scenarios/bgs, for at least 2 years (the average life span of an expansion,) I see no reason to delay raids simply to allow players to do something else that will be available for years.


To put it simply, it's most fun when it's new.
Edited by Arianity on 6/7/2012 8:48 PM PDT
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85 Human Paladin
11570
cant you personally start raiding 3-4 weeks later?


Players suck at gating ourselves+social pressure (guild, ranks,competition etc ). It's the same boat as "just turn off the nerf".

They don't need to babysit, but i dont think a short delay would hurt.


I know what you mean. my problem is...we wont get MoP any sooner, just get raiding later.

@Rurom: Look up "delusion".
Edited by Robokapp on 6/7/2012 9:01 PM PDT
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100 Human Priest
18755
Regardless of the reason, I'd definitely like to see raiding delayed a few weeks. At a minimum, look at it this way:

Tier 11
Level grind
Profession grind
(Heroic) Dungeon grind
Actual raiding (on a long tier of 14 bosses, remember what the top world guilds said about t11 being a brutal grind)

Tier 12
Actual raiding

Tier 13
Actual raiding

Being behind a few weeks simply because some people can't level fast enough and grind out heroics fast enough sucks, especially since that doesn't occur on subsequent tiers during the expansion.
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90 Worgen Warrior
16675
I like this idea.

I probably won't be able to zerg to 90 as fast as some other people in my guild due to school/work/etc, a 1-2 week delay would be pretty nifty.

The guilds that usually get world firsts would probably still get world firsts anyway.
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90 Worgen Druid
11595
06/07/2012 09:49 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
It keeps the race more skill based and not more "i have a seaonsal job"/"I am a student based".

I couldn't have said it better myself.
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90 Worgen Warlock
12820
I'm not a fan of the idea, I'm not that interested in pvp, or any of the other stuff coming out with the expansion. I want to level up and raid, not level up and sit around because little miss trallala wants to sit around watching her pikachru fight someone charmandror.

Many of you are seem to have this idea that by delaying raiding for a few weeks, everyone is going to walk into the dungeons on a completely even setting. However most of you guys really aren't thinking this through, most of you will level that one character to 90, smell all the flowers, play with your pets and farms, and feel like you have an honest chance against the top end guilds. Meanwhile those top end guilds will be leveling other characters to cap, the will have every single one of their characters fully geared out and ready to raid the second the instance doors are opened. They will step in, charge the bosses, and at the first sign of anything that can be "exploited" by stacking certain classes in order to gain an advantage, people will be changing characters to do it.

Delaying the raid instance is going to result in heavier class stacking, even in "unnecessary" situations. Delaying the parts of the game I find fun, so that you can dick around with the parts of the game you find fun isn't particularly fair.

The sad part is, if I were to suggest pet battles or farmville be delayed in order to ensure timely and quality raids, a lot of you guys would be up in arms at the idea. Just like how the raiders are up in arms about the idea of not being allowed to raid at expansion release.
Edited by Symposium on 6/7/2012 9:33 PM PDT
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100 Undead Mage
15885
Keep in mind if you are reading this thread, you are a WoW minority, most people(the bad ones in LFR) won't even know where the new raids are if they can't hit Control I. Some won't even know there is an expac until they get a log in error, yes it happens more than you think.

I see both sides of this argument. Both are valid

The raid train is coming, everyone either chooses to get on or chooses to get out of the way.

People choosing to get on the raid train don't want to be delayed because they are going somewhere in a hurry. Layovers aren't fun for most people.

The idea of not being "forced" to miss content in order to be raid ready asap is nice, but that is the entry price of competitive raiding. Which is a choice that every raider makes.

Some people choose to have kids, choose to take care of their grandparents, choose to go to work, and choose to sleep. These people have a responsibility they choose not to ignore.

Some of the lucky ones can choose to do all the above, more power to them.

Let's all look to Darkmoon Faire as an example, we have lots of people are going to it anyway even though it isn't fully open. Why? It's still something fun to do.

Right now, we have a lot of people playing wow, waiting for new content, DS released in patch 4.3 on December 13, we have had no new content for almost 6 months, and if we wait till everything is ready, up to possibly 4 more months of no new content.

There is no way to win this argument. If we do have to wait till October, everyone who bought an annual pass is gonna feel like they got jipped a little. Everyone who did not buy an annual pass is also gonna feel jipped a little.

People are going to complain either way, Blizzard should just do it. Give us some thing new to chew on. But be 100% certain there are raids in the wings ready to be released no later than 3 weeks after launch. Also, don't throw any nerfs for at least 3 months on any future raid tiers, then stick to the 3 month minimum.

Furthermore, don't nerf it, make it a buff, it just makes more sense in the lore of things. If Mr.+Mrs. Awesome shows up and all of a sudden every mob hits for less and has less health, why doesn't Mr.+Mrs Awesome just kill it for us? Makes more sense if Mr.+Mrs. Awesome shows up and throws us a buff and tells us good luck.

Stop rewarding slacker players who can't take the time to gear themselves properly and learn their class prior to raiding. It takes away from the epic feeling of raiding when Mr.+Mrs. Complacent shows up and doesn't know that they have to push more than 2 buttons to help their team (Had to put this in here some where)

For the raiders waiting to get on the MoP raid train, time is relevant, we are all in a layover, stuck at the Dragon Soul Raid train station, we can get on another train which goes a little out of the way, but we will be moving(metaphorically speaking). Take that extra time and have a main + 2-3 alts, or get a Monk raid ready when the gates are open. I get the idea of being world 1st, it is a thrill and has its prestige, but none of that is being taken away. Or we all wait at the Dragon Soul train station.... for up to 4 months.

Additionally, even with a 2-3 week delay the top raiding world 1st raiding guilds will still be able to put some distance very quickly between themselves and the rest of the raiding community. World 1sts are still on the table, and still between the same 10 or so top guilds, so don't sweat it.

For PVP, we kill each other because everyday starts and ends in "Y". Two to three weeks of mindless killing is not a ground breaking idea, lets go gank people collecting pets. World PVP has returned!!!

If Blizz does go through with this, they can actually come out with a small technical win of releasing more new content faster.

In the big scheme of things this is still a game, play to have fun however you choose.
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90 Worgen Druid
11595
06/07/2012 09:29 PMPosted by Symposium
I want to level up and raid, not level up and sit around because little miss trallala wants to sit around watching her pikachru fight someone charmandror.

Or because Mrs. Bloomer, the single widowed mother down the block (who also plays world of warcraft) is working two jobs to cover the cost of her children and still plays wow competitively in the meantime?

06/07/2012 09:29 PMPosted by Symposium
Many of you are seem to have this idea that by delaying raiding for a few weeks, everyone is going to walk into the dungeons on a completely even setting.

Nobody said anything remotely like that...the point of this is to allow more even play...I'm going to quote this person again just because I love it.

06/07/2012 09:28 PMPosted by Desiration
It keeps the race more skill based and not more "i have a seaonsal job"/"I am a student based".


They will step in, charge the bosses, and at the first sign of anything that can be "exploited" by stacking certain classes in order to gain an advantage, people will be changing characters to do it.

That's what world and high-pop guilds will be doing...and that just means A+ for effort, more kudos to them. There is a reason they are where they are.

06/07/2012 09:29 PMPosted by Symposium
The sad part is, if I were to suggest pet battles or farmville be delayed in order to ensure timely and quality raids

...is that not what's going on right now? By delaying raids, blizz is less pressured to create insta-works of art and they're allowed the advantage of seeing how MoP plays out in order to further balance raids. It's almost like you're assuming that raids will be released in their "usual" buggy/exploity state if we delay them, when in fact it's just the opposite.
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100 Troll Rogue
15880
06/07/2012 09:30 PMPosted by Jorahlol
I'm against it, because of all the people who live for the race. I'm not one of them, I don't have a desire to play this game 24/7, but that shouldn't mean the ratchetfaced, no-lifers, living in their mom's basement should suffer from that.


The race will be the same for those guilds it will just be them having their "main" toons even better prepared and more alt raids the first week so they can spread out the gear to as many "mains" as possible.
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