Delaying Raiding in MoP

1 Human Warrior
0
06/25/2012 09:13 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
Nothing would change except that the start of the race would be wouldn't be at 85, it would be at 90 in full 5-man gear. You're just moving up the white line in the dirt, but it won't make any noticeable difference in the marathon.


I'm not saying it will make us beat paragon or anything. I'm simply stating starting at the same time as everyone else is more advantageous then started a week or 2 behind. There is no arguing that.


I agree. They should release the game at the same time so everyone has a fair shot at raiding, and everyone starts at the exact same time.

It's not fair that certain guilds get access to the game weeks in advance.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
It's not fair that certain guilds get access to the game weeks in advance.


^
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85 Troll Hunter
9040
This is a possible idea I don't think its going to make a difference at all for top guilds. They will just be in better gear which they will just push faster. More or less it will take "some" pressure off none top guilds to have some time to see more of the content.
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85 Orc Warlock
15100
06/25/2012 09:03 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
Hopefully next tier we will be competitive with the US. This tier we made the 25 man transition, next tier we should be able to accomplish good things. We aren't gunning for your blood legions as we will not be raiding 35+ hours a week but I still expect us to rank much higher next tier than we did this tier. Top 250 seems like a reasonable goal.


While I applaud your ambition and the fact that you and your guildees have set a goal for yourselves (and I sincerly hope you do achieve it and wish you the best of luck!) that doesn't mean that other players should be artificially limited in their choices, play times, and play style.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
06/25/2012 02:25 AMPosted by Sherbear
False. Or at the very least an irrelevant statement. People...REAL people, have jobs and maybe children. Others have commitments that cannot wait for a game.


That doesn't negate the fact that there is still a "Choice" involved. Just because the choice may be a terrible one for some people, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist to be chosen.

I dislike this idea mainly because it takes away choices, rather than promote them. I like to raid and gear up at my leisure. I'm not interested at all in pet battles and everything else is there for me to explore once I get started in raiding. I'll have a whole year or two to see everything MoP has to offer.

I understand why people want this, but they have a choice either way as to how they want to experience the start of the game. They may not like the choice, but it's still there. I would not get the choice to raid when I choose to.


At the risk of sounding stupid, why is choice such an amazing thing? There seems to be an implicit assumption that a choice is inherently better than another option, no matter what.

i don't have time to go to kung fu class every week, that doesn't mean they should cancel the class. I also don't have time to go to happy hour every week, that doesn't mean they should close the bar.


What if moving the class from 5 to 8 means you can't attend, but 4 other people can. is it fair? Though a better analogy would be you can attending, you just end up having to twiddle your thumbs for the 3 hours in between and that is annoying/waste of time (but don't actually miss out on the event).

If enough people like the whole rushing deal, i'm not against it. Honestly, i wasn't quite sure how many people would be for/against. Just because they do it, doesn't mean they like it. It was a pretty interesting question though.

I was actually expecting more people to say no because 'that's how it's been', rather than actually enjoying it.
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
06/25/2012 09:05 AMPosted by Hyjinx
Nothing would change except that the start of the race would be wouldn't be at 85, it would be at 90 in full 5-man gear. You're just moving up the white line in the dirt, but it won't make any noticeable difference in the marathon.


To this I say yes and no, because top raiding guilds will spend a ton of time prepping themselves for the first raid, but if they're not fully geared out and ready to go...they still go. That's really the element that would be taken out by delaying raiding. Because if you had two weeks of time to gear up you'd definitely be in full crafted epics, and in all the dungeon gear you could get. Plus your alt(s) would be too. Without delaying it this will won't be the case with everyone even in the top guilds.

I'm not really for or against delaying it. I wouldn't mind it either way, but then again I know it won't be delayed anyways.

06/25/2012 09:13 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
I'm not saying it will make us beat paragon or anything. I'm simply stating starting at the same time as everyone else is more advantageous then started a week or 2 behind. There is no arguing that.


Can't believe I just read this. Whether you're for or against delaying the raids arguing this is just...dumb.
Edited by Liax on 6/25/2012 10:07 AM PDT
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100 Human Rogue
11320
06/25/2012 09:58 AMPosted by Yukio
While I applaud your ambition and the fact that you and your guildees have set a goal for yourselves (and I sincerly hope you do achieve it and wish you the best of luck!) that doesn't mean that other players should be artificially limited in their choices, play times, and play style.


I'm not even saying its right thing to do, just that in my own biased opinion its what I'd like to see happen because its whats best for my guild.

06/25/2012 09:29 AMPosted by Berrillo
It's not fair that certain guilds get access to the game weeks in advance.


...its not that they get it weeks in advance its that they don't have jobs (or have seasonal jobs). Delaying raiding a week would make it so the majority of the player base have the advantage of having enough time to play WoW before raids open. Again, my biased (the word selfish probably belongs somewhere around here) opinion. As I stated previously in the thread, if I had was unemployed or independently wealthy or what ever the situation you guys have where you'll grind 85-90 in one elongated sitting is I would be all for raids opening at launch. I'm not going to BS anyone here and try to pretend I want to see this for some sort of greater good, I like the idea because it would directly benefit me. It's that simple.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
06/25/2012 10:07 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
While I applaud your ambition and the fact that you and your guildees have set a goal for yourselves (and I sincerly hope you do achieve it and wish you the best of luck!) that doesn't mean that other players should be artificially limited in their choices, play times, and play style.


I'm not even saying its right thing to do, just that in my own biased opinion its what I'd like to see happen because its whats best for my guild.

It's not fair that certain guilds get access to the game weeks in advance.


...its not that they get it weeks in advance its that they don't have jobs (or have seasonal jobs). Delaying raiding a week would make it so the majority of the player base have the advantage of having enough time to play WoW before raids open. Again, my biased (the word selfish probably belongs somewhere around here) opinion. As I stated previously in the thread, if I had was unemployed or independently wealthy or what ever the situation you guys have where you'll grind 85-90 in one elongated sitting is I would be all for raids opening at launch. I'm not going to BS anyone here and try to pretend I want to see this for some sort of greater good, I like the idea because it would directly benefit me. It's that simple.


Atleast you're honest? :D
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100 Human Rogue
11320
06/25/2012 10:04 AMPosted by Liax
Can't believe I just read this. Whether you're for or against delaying the raids arguing this is just...dumb.


Whats dumb about it? If you where going to race me in a mile do you think you'd have a better chance at winning if you started at the gun or if you waited for me to finish my first quarter mile? People in favor of raids at release seem to be under the impression that everyone has the option to put their entire life on hold for a week when an expansion drops and for the majority of people that simply is not the case. You can argue wanting to delay raids is selfish (it is), you can argue its un needed but it is actually impossible for an intelligent person to argue that starting late does not put you at a disadvantage.

Say the average person can play 20 hours a week and it takes 30 hours to level/gear up. If you delay raiding a week that starts raid progression on the same even playing field. Again, if I could put my life on hold for a week at expansions release I'd want raids at release... I can't so I'd prefer if they where delayed a week. I want whats best for me, you want whats best for you. It's not super natural.
Edited by Ninjablaze on 6/25/2012 10:15 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
06/25/2012 10:15 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
Whats dumb about it? If you where going to race me in a mile do you think you'd have a better chance at winning if you started at the gun or if you waited for me to finish my first quarter mile? People in favor of raids at release seem to be under the impression that everyone has the option to put their entire life on hold for a week when an expansion drops and for the majority of people that simply is not the case.


This is not an accurate comparison. It's more like you're a fat person in a race, and your competitors happen to be athletes who train and prepare for it. You're upset that you have to take it slow by doing a mix of walking, jogging, and maybe some running while the others can run the entire race nonstop.

06/25/2012 10:15 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
Say the average person can play 20 hours a week and it takes 30 hours to level/gear up. If you delay raiding a week that starts raid progression on the same even playing field. Again, if I could put my life on hold for a week at expansions release I'd want raids at release... I can't so I'd prefer if they where delayed a week. I want whats best for me, you want whats best for you. It's not super natural.


Actually I said I don't care which happens. Both have their advantages, and disadvantages. Personally, and I've never ever ever done this before with a game, I've saved up PTO so that I can take a week off when MoP goes live so I can just go gung-ho on it. I think it'd be kind of fun to do it once, and go all hardcore.

The reason you baffle me is because your logic is skewed. Wanting it delayed for yourself because you can't put your life on hold is fine and dandy, and I can understand why you'd like that. The logic you use about how because you can't compete with others is the reason, and how it's an unfair race is just stupid.

The race starts on 9:00am. You're allowed to wake up, get ready for it, and be at the starting line just like everyone else is. Just because you're fat while the other people are athletes isn't a reason to delay the race so you have time to train yourself.
Edited by Liax on 6/25/2012 10:26 AM PDT
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85 Orc Warlock
15100
06/25/2012 10:07 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
...its not that they get it weeks in advance its that they don't have jobs (or have seasonal jobs).


My guild has three students on the raiding roster and the rest of us are adults with jobs, homes, and famalies. The majority of our roster seem to be in their late twenties and early thirties and I'm the oldest at forty-one. You're correct we don't have jobs we have careers. But that has nothing to do with our ability to play the game.

Delaying raiding a week would make it so the majority of the player base have the advantage of having enough time to play WoW before raids open.


We have no data on the majority of the playerbase and their ages or occupations. That is speculation.

I appreciate the fact that you're honest about why you want raids locked for several weeks (to benefit you and your guild) but I have a deep philosophic objection to an artifical limitation on my playtime and playstyle that has nothing to do with anything in-game.

If you want to slow down raiding a far better system are attunement chains like Kara had. If you say you'd like to slow down raiding at the start of an expansion by bringing back character specific attunement chains involving extensive questing at or near max level and multiple dungeon runs I'd be fine with that. At least my ability to raid is only hampered by my play and not some arbitrary deadline set for no reason related to gameplay.
Edited by Yukio on 6/25/2012 10:37 AM PDT
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100 Human Rogue
11320
06/25/2012 10:24 AMPosted by Liax
This is not an accurate comparison. It's more like you're a fat person in a race, and your competitors happen to be athletes who train and prepare for it. You're upset that you have to take it slow by doing a mix of walking, jogging, and maybe some running while the others can run the entire race nonstop.


Its actually more like if it takes 30 hours to train for a race and some people only have 20 hours to train during a week, thus delaying it so everyone has the same amount of time to prepair regardless of weather or not they work evens the playing field.

06/25/2012 10:24 AMPosted by Liax
The reason you baffle me is because your logic is skewed. Wanting it delayed for yourself because you can't put your life on hold is fine and dandy, and I can understand why you'd like that. The logic you use about how because you can't compete with others is the reason, and how it's an unfair race is just stupid.


Oh, I didn't say it was unfair. I honestly don't think either way is any more or less fair than the other. Normally when I post my opinions reflect what I think is in the best interest of the game. This is a situation where I don't think there is a "greater good of the game". Either way the difference will not be huge and thus I take the side that benefits me directly. It's not that I think its an unfair advantage, it just is as I pointed out an advantage.

06/25/2012 10:24 AMPosted by Liax
The race starts on 9:00am. You're allowed to wake up, get ready for it, and be at the starting line just like everyone else is. Just because you're fat while the other people are athletes isn't a reason to delay the race so you have time to train yourself.


IF everyone could start the race at 9 I'd agree. But since many of us have work and cannot start playing the second the game drops AND we have to take breaks to work and such thats not really the way it works out. Those who are unemployed (or have no better use of vacation time) have a distinct advantage over your 9-5 crowd and thats not even debatable.

I guess another thing worth pointing out is the fact that many raiders actually do look forward to this grind. I kind of assumed most raiders where in my shoes where they hated the new expansion grind. Elongated play periods with little to no sleep is not something I suspected so many people would enjoy.
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100 Human Rogue
11320
My guild has three students on the raiding roster and the rest of us are adults with jobs, homes, and famalies. The majority of our roster seem to be in their late twenties and early thirties and I'm the oldest at forty-one. You're correct we don't have jobs we have careers. But that has nothing to do with our ability to play the game.


I have never questioned your ability to play the game simply the amount of time you have to play the game. If you are at work 9-5 you can't be playing and thus will not level as fast as those people who are not at work.

We have no data on the majority of the playerbase and their ages or occupations. That is speculation.


We have data on the majority of people who can afford a computer, an internet connection and a subscription to a video game. Majority work.

06/25/2012 10:36 AMPosted by Yukio
I appreciate the fact that you're honest about why you want raids locked for several weeks (to benefit you and your guild) but I have a deep philosophic objection to an artifical limitation on my playtime and playstyle that has nothing to do with anything in-game.


Then why are you ok with only being able to run raids once a week? Under that philosophy shouldn't we be able to spam run them to BiS gear and who ever has the most time will have the best gear and progression? The game is full of limiting factors. I think several weeks is over kill, I think 1 week would not effect the people who rush themselves to 90 in any meaningful way.

If you want to slow down raiding a far better system are attunement chains like Kara had. If you say you'd like to slow down raiding at the start of an expansion by bringing back character specific attunement chains involving extensive questing at or near max level and multiple dungeon runs I'd be fine with that. At least my ability to raid is only hampered by my play and not some arbitrary deadline set for no reason related to gameplay.


As I said earlier I really don't see it having a huge impact one way or another so I went with what works best for me. I completely understand your point of view and don't even think its really wrong, I simply don't think there is a right or wrong for this issue.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
We have no data on the majority of the playerbase and their ages or occupations. That is speculation.


Didn't they say a while back that the average age for wow players is something around 30? Assuming they have an occupation isn't real a huge leap after that.

06/25/2012 10:24 AMPosted by Liax
The race starts on 9:00am. You're allowed to wake up, get ready for it, and be at the starting line just like everyone else is. Just because you're fat while the other people are athletes isn't a reason to delay the race so you have time to train yourself.


How many marathons are scheduled on a monday morning rather than a saturday/sunday? (unless they're exclusive to professional runners, but even still).

Being fat would corespond more to not being skilled. Do you deserve to win the race because i can't (or rather, would rather not) take monday off?

It's my personal opinion, but i don't think that should matter in a race. Neither should how much money you make, or whether you're a lawyer vs a plumber.

Edit:

Also, what if it were just normal mode open for 2 weeks? I think i brought it up earlier. But you'd still get the "pug with the best people on the server" play.
Edited by Arianity on 6/25/2012 12:11 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
06/25/2012 10:45 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
Its actually more like if it takes 30 hours to train for a race and some people only have 20 hours to train during a week, thus delaying it so everyone has the same amount of time to prepair regardless of weather or not they work evens the playing field.


You get what you put in. If the race means enough to you you'll either find time, or make time. If it doesn't, or you just flat out can't then you can't be competitive. That's how it works. And you all have the same amount of time to train. If the race starts in a week you have a week to prepare, and you need to get 30 hours done in that time frame. How you handle your time frame is on your own thing. Delaying it is akin to telling the person who can put 30 hours of training in to stop at 20, and wait till the next week to finish his last 10.

06/25/2012 10:45 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
IF everyone could start the race at 9 I'd agree.


If you can't make the race don't sign up for it. No one is holding a gun to your head and telling you to play WoW, telling you to attempt to be competitive (albeit not cream of the crop, but you said yourself you want to be on the map), and telling you to raid.

You have the option of simply choosing not to race.

I guess what it gets down to is that you want your cake, and to eat it too. There's really no rhyme or reason as to why you want this done other than to directly benefit yourself, which you said. So really my point is, cool voice your opinion that you'd love it because it'd benefit you. But advocating it is something entirely different.

06/25/2012 10:52 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
Then why are you ok with only being able to run raids once a week?


That's to disallow exhausting content in a week, and the whole 7 day lockout per raid (Save for a few smaller raids back in the day that were given 3 day lockouts because their loot wasn't nearly as good) has been around since the game (And I'm pretty sure most MMO's do this kind of thing too in some sort of way, although WoW has been my only MMO ever so I can't really say for certain) came out.

It's the same reason they don't let you choose your loot because then everyone would be done really quick with content. Delaying raids doesn't do the same thing because if the content for those top tier raiders is going to last 7 weeks it'll last 7 weeks. Delaying them for 2 (or whatever #) weeks doesn't make it not last 7 weeks, it just makes them wait 2 weeks before their 7 week grind begins.
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90 Dwarf Rogue
16965
you're taking this race thing too far.

to fuel it a little more though.

Let's pretend the race starts the expansion hits, not when raids begin.

we all start even. SOme run faster, don't Harrison Bergeron the game more and limit people to the slowest denominators.

Not to mention, as I said before, if you delay them 2 weeks, the "top raiders" will have 10 alt runs going week 2 and be able to mix/match their top 10 most geared characters for a comp and be ready to stomp heroics the 2nd week.

you'll still be behind. no matter how artificially you screw over dedicated players, they'll still be more dedicated and ready to take over.
Edited by Shanzhang on 6/25/2012 12:50 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
06/25/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Arianity
How many marathons are scheduled on a monday morning rather than a saturday/sunday? (unless they're exclusive to professional runners, but even still).


Doesn't matter. If you can't make the race time don't sign up for it. That simple.

06/25/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Arianity
Being fat would corespond more to not being skilled. Do you deserve to win the race because i can't (or rather, would rather not) take monday off?


In my example it's corresponding it to gear.

Put 30 hours in to get geared up for the raid and you should do pretty good. Thus you're an athlete. Put 10 hours in to get geared up for a raid, and you will probably flail, or have to wait until you're ready. Thus you're still fat.

06/25/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Arianity
Also, what if it were just normal mode open for 2 weeks? I think i brought it up earlier. But you'd still get the "pug with the best people on the server" play.


That's kind of just pointless TBH. Because the people who would go for that aren't going to clear the normal content in two weeks. Anyone who is going to be a hardcore pressing guild is going to have normal mode done by week 1. So you just make them farm it for another week. Everyone else is just going to be at varying points in the normal content.

06/25/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Arianity
It's my personal opinion, but i don't think that should matter in a race. Neither should how much money you make, or whether you're a lawyer vs a plumber.


I don't really even know what to say to this. Money does not contribute to how much time you are and aren't able to put into this game. I make a little less than 30k a year. What does contribute is how much time you think this game is worth compared to how much time you think IRL is worth, or more directly how much you have going in on it. This game is catered to a wide variety of players. It allows extremely casual players to see LFR content, do dungeons, casually PvP, and level. It also allows the top notch players that dedicate themselves to gaming in general to race for the top spot. If you can't put the time in for that then you simply don't deserve it.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
you're taking this race thing too far.

to fuel it a little more though.

Let's pretend the race starts the expansion hits, not when raids begin.

we all start even. Some run faster, don't Harrison Bergeron the game more and limit people to the slowest denominators.

Not to mention, as I said before, if you delay them 2 weeks, the "top raiders" will have 10 alt runs going week 2 and be able to mix/match their top 10 most geared characters for a comp and be ready to stomp heroics the 2nd week.

you'll still be behind. no matter how artificially you screw over dedicated players, they'll still be more dedicated and ready to take over.


The race analogy isn't that bad, if you think of it as a few months/weeks long.

No one thinks they're going to be more competitive with paragon, or vodka over this. It's not the uber hardcore guilds. If you practice 20 hours a week, you're not going to beat the guy who practices 40 hours. You might beat the guy who practices 19, but takes the week before off work and does 25.

but question:

Who is better?
The guy who runs a race in 7minutes on monday, or the guy who runs it in 6:30 on tuesday?

06/25/2012 12:49 PMPosted by Shanzhang
you'll still be behind. no matter how artificially you screw over dedicated players, they'll still be more dedicated and ready to take over.


It's not really about trying to screw people over.

Dedication is being willing to put in 40 hours, skipping sleep, pulling 500 pulls in a row, being on the beta and scouting it all out. It's not taking the time off work.imo

It's not skill, or hard work. It's essentially a roll of the dice if you got the right job/circumstances, unless you're at the level you're going to mold your life around the game. Which the people this would effect aren't.
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100 Human Rogue
11320
06/25/2012 12:48 PMPosted by Liax
You get what you put in. If the race means enough to you you'll either find time, or make time. If it doesn't, or you just flat out can't then you can't be competitive. That's how it works. And you all have the same amount of time to train. If the race starts in a week you have a week to prepare, and you need to get 30 hours done in that time frame. How you handle your time frame is on your own thing. Delaying it is akin to telling the person who can put 30 hours of training in to stop at 20, and wait till the next week to finish his last 10.


Alright and if you can spend all day "training" and I have to go to work 9-5 that means we don't have the same amount of time to train and you are better prepared. Delaying raiding 1 week puts us on a even playing field as we both now have adequate amount of time to prepare. I do see where your coming from though, you have the time to just sit there a level 85-90.

06/25/2012 12:48 PMPosted by Liax
If you can't make the race don't sign up for it. No one is holding a gun to your head and telling you to play WoW, telling you to attempt to be competitive (albeit not cream of the crop, but you said yourself you want to be on the map), and telling you to raid.


Races generally don't require you to devote your entire life to them. I think it would directly benefit most peoples real lives to have a weeks grace period.

06/25/2012 12:48 PMPosted by Liax
I guess what it gets down to is that you want your cake, and to eat it too. There's really no rhyme or reason as to why you want this done other than to directly benefit yourself, which you said. So really my point is, cool voice your opinion that you'd love it because it'd benefit you. But advocating it is something entirely different.


I just don't see how waiting 1 week to start raiding would negatively impact a guild like TM. IMO you should want to win a competition because you are the best, not because you simply have the most time.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
06/25/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Liax
I don't really even know what to say to this. Money does not contribute to how much time you are and aren't able to put into this game. I make a little less than 30k a year. What does contribute is how much time you think this game is worth compared to how much time you think IRL is worth, or more directly how much you have going in on it. This game is catered to a wide variety of players. It allows extremely casual players to see LFR content, do dungeons, casually PvP, and level. It also allows the top notch players that dedicate themselves to gaming in general to race for the top spot. If you can't put the time in for that then you simply don't deserve it.


For me it's the same concept. The same reason real money doesn't (and shouldn't) effect your performance in the game,is why what job you have shouldn't.

06/25/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Liax
That's kind of just pointless TBH. Because the people who would go for that aren't going to clear the normal content in two weeks. Anyone who is going to be a hardcore pressing guild is going to have normal mode done by week 1. So you just make them farm it for another week. Everyone else is just going to be at varying points in the normal content.


Yeah, but you can clear normal without full bis, full rep etc.

Realistically, the BLs and vodkas are going to have 10 alts instead of 5 ready to go. But at some point it's not reasonable to hold it off longer.

06/25/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Liax
Doesn't matter. If you can't make the race time don't sign up for it. That simple.


Yeah. It's just weird, because an expansion is like running 4-5 at the same time, at different skill levels. It's perfectly acceptable to say "deal with it" at the professional, or not professional, but serious, people.

It's that awkward level where you don't want to take time off, but you're still somewhat competitive (in your skill bracket).

Ideally, the idea is more like staggering the races, so having the casual one start at 8 am, and the hardcore one at noon. That way, you don't need to pick a race. You can do the casual one, and still make the more hardcore one.

06/25/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Liax
Doesn't matter. If you can't make the race time don't sign up for it. That simple.


Yeah. It just kind of sucks, since this thing is fairly rare, and it's probably got a lot bigger audience than most races. It's hard to cater to 10million players, instead of say, 1000 people. And you can't just skip it and go to the one in a month.

If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Worth asking though.
Edited by Arianity on 6/25/2012 1:22 PM PDT
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