Delaying Raiding in MoP

90 Troll Shaman
12580
06/25/2012 01:08 PMPosted by Ninjablaze
Alright and if you can spend all day "training" and I have to go to work 9-5 that means we don't have the same amount of time to train and you are better prepared.


I work 8-4:30 Mon-Fri. Then I go work out for like an hour after that on most days. Then I come home and raid. That was pretty much my lifestyle when we were pushing content.

06/25/2012 01:08 PMPosted by Ninjablaze
I just don't see how waiting 1 week to start raiding would negatively impact a guild like TM. IMO you should want to win a competition because you are the best, not because you simply have the most time.


Because the people we'll be competing against are doing the same thing we're doing. So we're on very even ground.

06/25/2012 01:08 PMPosted by Ninjablaze
Races generally don't require you to devote your entire life to them. I think it would directly benefit most peoples real lives to have a weeks grace period.


This is a fun argument. Did you know that if you do hardcore content pushing you, in the end, raid less than non-hardcores. The difference is the push we put into it at the start of the content

And as for devoting your life at the start of the expansion...yeah, so what? An expansion comes out once every couple of years. To me I don't see it as devoting my life to simply say Cool, I want to get really into it for a week, and power myself to the max level, and gear myself out.
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90 Human Rogue
10960
Another thing to point out is this issue is only relevant for the first tier of content. There is no outside barrier in any other tier of the first tier of the expansion so a weeks grace period essentially brings it into line with the rest of the xpac.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8800
06/25/2012 01:21 PMPosted by Liax
Because the people we'll be competing against are doing the same thing we're doing. So we're on very even ground.


Yeah, but if you both couldn't, you'd still be doing the same thing, and on even ground. And i don't think even if it happened, my guild would keep up with yours. But we would probably keep up to a guild who's just on that cusp, where they might go at it like you(time wise), but skill wise they're slower than us. And they may not even want to do it, but don't want to give up the advantage.

It'd be nice to be able to beat the guy running 7min with our 6min. But it's hard to prove that you actually did it faster, when it's just "expansion k go".

How do you prove you killed spine in 150 attempts, and not 200?

Edit:

Honestly, if you could slow them down, but let you guys do your thing, that'd be ideal. If you want to, i'm cool with that.
Edited by Arianity on 6/25/2012 1:32 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
I don't see how it brings it in line with the rest of the expac.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10550
06/25/2012 10:02 AMPosted by Arianity
At the risk of sounding stupid, why is choice such an amazing thing?


Imagine if your entire life revolved around limited choices. What if cars only came in blue or pizza only came with pepperoni on it? Your choice is limited to either having a blue car and pepperoni pizza or not having them at all. What a boring world...

This is why choice is an amazing thing.

There seems to be an implicit assumption that a choice is inherently better than another option, no matter what.


If the game is released whole, then EVERYONE has the option, choice and right to play as they choose. If the game is released without raids, then you restrict a certain playstyle that many of us find desirable and fun. Either choice/option is not inherently better than the other, but a complete expansion suits everyone and an incomplete expansion does not.
Edited by Sherbear on 6/25/2012 1:31 PM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
10960
06/25/2012 01:21 PMPosted by Liax
I work 8-4:30 Mon-Fri. Then I go work out for like an hour after that on most days. Then I come home and raid. That was pretty much my lifestyle when we were pushing content.


That's a similar schedule to mine and you would not fall under the category of people I am NOT worried about getting too far ahead. How many hours a week do you guys raid during progression just out of curiosity? I suppose if any point makes your case that there is no need to gate content a week its going to be that one. We will never be able to raid the 35 hours a week world first guilds do.

06/25/2012 01:21 PMPosted by Liax
Because the people we'll be competing against are doing the same thing we're doing. So we're on very even ground.


If you only want to compete against people who have equally available RLs (which equates to skill in no way) then this is true.

06/25/2012 01:21 PMPosted by Liax
This is a fun argument. Did you know that if you do hardcore content pushing you, in the end, raid less than non-hardcores. The difference is the push we put into it at the start of the content


I am familiar with the way it works.

06/25/2012 01:21 PMPosted by Liax
And as for devoting your life at the start of the expansion...yeah, so what? An expansion comes out once every couple of years. To me I don't see it as devoting my life to simply say Cool, I want to get really into it for a week, and power myself to the max level, and gear myself out.


So some people simply cannot do that. If you plan on working as much as you say you do the week MOP comes out again, you are not who I am worried about.
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90 Human Rogue
10960
06/25/2012 01:28 PMPosted by Liax
I don't see how it brings it in line with the rest of the expac.


Because for every other tier the doors open at the same time for everyone. The first tier the doors open when you have 25 people at level 90 which will be different for every guild.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8800
06/25/2012 01:30 PMPosted by Sherbear
If the game is released whole, then EVERYONE has the option, choice and right to play as they choose. If the game is released without raids, then you restrict a certain playstyle that many of us find desirable and fun. Either choice/option is not inherently better than the other, but a complete expansion suits everyone and an incomplete expansion does not.


That's the thing. Not everyone would find it perfect. I would get more fun out of the delay, or we wouldn't have asked.

I'd distinctly rather *not* have the choice. It's absolutely a "want my cake and eat it too" kind of thing.

Ideally, i'd have my cake and eat it, without touching anyone elses cake. i don't wanna ruin anyone elses' fun.

If you're at a level of play where you're not willing to work your working life around the release, it's not a real choice for you. Look at me and ninja, for example. Lets say we both make the same choice. We will not move our lives around the schedule release. Well guess what- if MoP comes out in august, i'm still on summer break (college). If it releases in sept, we're on even footing.If it releases in dec, he has an advantage, because i have finals.

That's basically random. We made the same choice- not commiting to the game. But i get an advantage because im in college and he has a job (im assuming)?

We made the same choice and got different results.

What if cars only came in blue or pizza only came with pepperoni on it? Your choice is limited to either having a blue car and pepperoni pizza or not having them at all. What a boring world...

This is why choice is an amazing thing.


If i'm going to buy a blue car and pepperoni pizza every time anyway, i can't say it bothers me. But the analogy is bad. More choice (with no consequences) is always good. There are no downsides to having yellow and blue cars.

If in order to have yellow cars (for the people who want it), i get lower quality blue paint, it's not nearly so clear cut.
Edited by Arianity on 6/25/2012 1:58 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
They should just make a new raid boss available every time I kill one. That way, no one can ever get too far ahead of me.
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90 Human Rogue
10960
They should just make a new raid boss available every time I kill one. That way, no one can ever get too far ahead of me.


Well you guys raid 10 man e-z mode so you prolly kill bosses pretty quick ;).
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90 Night Elf Druid
10550
06/25/2012 01:42 PMPosted by Arianity
But the analogy is bad.


Not really. It wasn't a comparison to the game/expansion at all. You wanted to know why having a choice is such an amazing thing and I tried to demonstrate why.

We're just playing the semantics game now.

06/25/2012 01:42 PMPosted by Arianity
Ideally, i'd have my cake and eat it, without touching anyone elses cake. i don't wanna ruin anyone elses' fun.


^ This is the entire crux of the issue.

I totally understand why some people want to be able to have some time to enjoy their trip through the start of the xpac without feeling rushed or due to peer pressure. That is entirely reasonable. The folks that want this because they feel they'll be on even ground? You really won't be. You'll still have entire guilds in Beta and on the PTR testing the raids. Those guilds already have the advantage regardless of when raids drop. Even ground is not so even then.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
How many marathons are scheduled on a monday morning rather than a saturday/sunday? (unless they're exclusive to professional runners, but even still).

Being fat would corespond more to not being skilled. Do you deserve to win the race because i can't (or rather, would rather not) take monday off?

It's my personal opinion, but i don't think that should matter in a race. Neither should how much money you make, or whether you're a lawyer vs a plumber.

Edit:

Also, what if it were just normal mode open for 2 weeks? I think i brought it up earlier. But you'd still get the "pug with the best people on the server" play.


I do sporting tournaments (bowling). The majority of them are scheduled on the weekends - Friday through Sunday - because that's when most people are available.

However, there are still times when I or people I know can't make the tournaments because of prior commitments, other tournaments, or jobs. In those cases, they don't stop or delay or reschedule the tournament. That would be asinine.

At one monthly tournament I participate in, there's a guy who often places very highly and has the potential to win every single one. Sometimes he can't make it because of his job. At those tournaments - guess what - someone else wins. And yes, that someone damn well did deserve it.

The overall problem with this argument is that nothing changes except the starting line. Whether the line starts at 85 when Mists releases or starts 3 weeks late when everyone's 90 and "ready" for raids (what is ready, anyway?) you're STILL going to get nowhere. If you couldn't race to 90 and put a significant amount of time into raiding the first few weeks, then what exactly makes you think you'll be able to put a significant amount of time into raiding after the first few weeks?
Edited by Hyjinx on 6/25/2012 2:13 PM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
10960
06/25/2012 02:05 PMPosted by Sherbear
I totally understand why some people want to be able to have some time to enjoy their trip through the start of the xpac without feeling rushed or due to peer pressure. That is entirely reasonable. The folks that want this because they feel they'll be on even ground? You really won't be. You'll still have entire guilds in Beta and on the PTR testing the raids. Those guilds already have the advantage regardless of when raids drop. Even ground is not so even then.


We will be beta testing as well...

I guess its come down to this. I do not think option A or option B are better. I think they both have advantages and disadvantages. Liax and firestyles think option A is better and thus I have spent most of my time defending option B because IMO it is an equally good idea. I am in favor of option B because it benefits me, I do not think one way or another is actually better overall.
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90 Human Rogue
10960
The overall problem with this argument is that nothing changes except the starting line. Whether the line starts at 85 when Mists releases or starts 3 weeks late when everyone's 90 and "ready" for raids (what is ready, anyway?) you're STILL going to get nowhere. If you couldn't spare the time to race to 90 and put a significant amount of time into raiding the first few weeks, then what exactly makes you think you'll be able to spare the time to put a significant amount of time into raiding after the first few weeks?


This is a very good point (and the argument I was hinting at was good in my earlier post today). It would just be nice to walk in the door at the same time. As I said, I don't really think either way is better.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10550
06/25/2012 02:11 PMPosted by Ninjablaze
I guess its come down to this. I do not think option A or option B are better. I think they both have advantages and disadvantages. Liax and firestyles think option A is better and thus I have spent most of my time defending option B because IMO it is an equally good idea. I am in favor of option B because it benefits me, I do not think one way or another is actually better overall.


I entirely agree with this.

I dislike a later start because it restricts my playstyle (and others as well I'm sure), but that doesn't mean that I believe it to be the BETTER option. Whatever comes, I'll deal and be "ok" with it.
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
Like I said I don't actually care that much which happens. I can definitely see why it's a major letdown for people that enjoy that kind of thing.

The only thing that irks me is people who claim it's an unfair headstart. It's not. They're just more dedicated to doing it than you are. That's really all I'm arguing/baffled about.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
I guess its come down to this. I do not think option A or option B are better. I think they both have advantages and disadvantages. Liax and firestyles think option A is better and thus I have spent most of my time defending option B because IMO it is an equally good idea. I am in favor of option B because it benefits me, I do not think one way or another is actually better overall.


I entirely agree with this.

I dislike a later start because it restricts my playstyle (and others as well I'm sure), but that doesn't mean that I believe it to be the BETTER option. Whatever comes, I'll deal and be "ok" with it.


Well, there's 2 things to consider here. First, you're assuming that someone at Blizzard is actually considering this idea. Unless we've collected some fans in the CM club that fancy our daily banter on the D&R forums, I don't really think delaying raiding upon release of Cata is really up for debate.

Which, brings me to my second point of why this won't happen. Which quite frankly, is that this sort of change only makes players unhappy. It's a lose-lose for blizzard to implement something like this and will only net unhappy customers. Many players who raid, and are very loyal, will be restricted from doing an activity they enjoy at the behest of other players who simply want to do other activities from raiding (mind you no one is stopping them). The benefit and positive feedback from those players who don't want to raid the first week won't be greater than the negative impact on those who will be prohibited from raiding.

And, when you are in the business of keeping customers happy, you're better off trying to maintain an average level of customer satisfaction rather than play some customers against other customers in a situation like this. It's simply better for business to not put restrictions on activities simply because some players don't want other players to get a leg up on them in-game, but rather that push to raid week 1, they just want to stop others.
Edited by Firestyle on 6/25/2012 5:03 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Rogue
16965
The guy who runs a race in 7minutes on monday, or the guy who runs it in 6:30 on tuesday?


The guy who raids wednesday and doesn't care about other people.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8800
Well, there's 2 things to consider here. First, you're assuming that someone at Blizzard is actually considering this idea. Unless we've collected some fans in the CM club that fancy our daily banter on the D&R forums, I don't really think delaying raiding upon release of Cata is really up for debate.


Yeah. It's more of a discussion, even if we all agreed it wouldn't happen. I'm simply interested in which people pick, and why. Don't get your hopes up on a change. :)

Either way, it's an interesting question. I know there's been some research into similar ideas before (similar concept for why we have rested xp today, gating,lockouts etc..it's not just to lengthen how long content lasts). I'd be pretty curious to see what blizzard actually thought about it.
Unless we've collected some fans in the CM club that fancy our daily banter on the D&R forums


Also, i lol'd.

06/25/2012 04:01 PMPosted by Liax
The only thing that irks me is people who claim it's an unfair headstart. It's not. They're just more dedicated to doing it than you are. That's really all I'm arguing/baffled about.


The only time you can really argue it's 'unfair' in the first place is the niche case i talked about earlier. Other than that, it's personal taste.

I'm a purist,so i tend to take the stance that nothing outside the game should have any effect at all, where possible. It's neat to see other mindsets though.
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