I am sad

100 Gnome Priest
17750
I'm questing on my warlock in Nagrand. I get the quest to kill Durn the Hungerer.

Recklessly, I set out to kill him. I know I'm about to be pulped like a g%!!#fruit.

I remember fighting him back in BC and Wrath. Elite, with something like 110k HP. Back in BC, you needed a 5 man group if you were going to take him on at level 66-68. You would clear all the mobs out of a large area so when he did his knockback on the tank, you didn't aggro anything else. Some groups even had extra help there to attack once he got tapped.

I figure I have heirlooms on my side to make up some of the difference, not to mention much better knowledge of the game. It doesn't change the fact that I also know I'm about to get left a bloody smear on the ground (or would be if Forsaken had any blood).

I get to Durn.

He's a normal mob with just over 12k health.

/cry

What has happened to this game? Even leveling needs that touch of epic challenge and adventure on occasion. But evidently all the elite group quest mobs got nerfed back when 4.3 hit.
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100 Tauren Shaman
10315
I don't necessarily like to rush through leveling, but I really always hated group quests. Not only do I prefer questing alone, but it's such a pita to get people together to do one quest where you have to kill one guy, particularly if you are a slow leveler like me. I'm always way behind where everyone else is, and I hate asking people to stop what they're doing to come back two zones to help me with this one group quest. I usually just ended up skipping it or finding like, one friend who was leveled and OP enough that they could solo it, which is totally not in the spirit of things. Or waiting until I outleveled it enough to come back and do it myself. But mostly the skipping. When it's new content, it's easy enough to find other people wandering around the area who need the quest, too, but come on, how many people do you run into in BC content? I usually do a /who when I'm out there, just to see. The most I've seen lately is like, two.

TL;DR: I don't think ALL group quests should be nerfed, but I was psyched when they got rid of all the lower level group quests, and I still am.
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66 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
I think they should bring back more wandering elites like the Fel Reaver, who have no real purpose except to create a sense of danger and frustration and lots of corpse runs.
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90 Draenei Paladin
11255
06/11/2012 06:42 AMPosted by Yellowflower
I don't think ALL group quests should be nerfed, but I was psyched when they got rid of all the lower level group quests, and I still am.


Me too and I enjoy leveling.

06/11/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Grimms
I think they should bring back more wandering elites like the Fel Reaver, who have no real purpose except to create a sense of danger and frustration and lots of corpse runs.


Yep, or possibly even dangerous world event type things. Like random spawn tornado's or something. Sand storms in deserts!

06/11/2012 06:21 AMPosted by Thelanora
I hear people complain about levelling being too easy as if they need a challenge but there are plenty of other challenges in the game.


I think if anything the low level dungeons should be a bit more challenging. I mean, at least how they were in wrath. You can pretty much solo or duo a lot of them at level now.
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100 Tauren Shaman
10315
06/11/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Grimms
I think they should bring back more wandering elites like the Fel Reaver, who have no real purpose except to create a sense of danger and frustration and lots of corpse runs.


I would fully support that.

The Arseclowns in this game think mroe and More MMO means Me, Myself Online. Now am I glad they Nerfed some of the group quest mobs? Yes, To some degree, yea. but Durn and his Like are SUPPOSED to be a challenge most monumental. It cant even be blamed on the casuals exclusively, they are catering to the out and out Selfishly Lazy.

I Liked the challenge of those quests. @ level, I would either have to find a group to kill the Nesingwary Nagrand named mobs, or I would have to devise a Ludicrous method to solo them. Now I imagine I can down them in a few shots..... no real risk to life or limb....


I don't see how wanting to play solo makes someone an "arseclown"


Seriously. Particularly in the old content where there's never anyone around who would also need to do those group quests. No one is ever IN Nagrand. Trying to find a group for killing Durn at this point would be a huge waste of time. It would take longer to find a group to kill him than it would to outlevel the quest and solo it. I fully support group quests in Cata content, because that's still somewhat relevant, but group quests in Outland? Come on. It's really not worth the trouble, and I think it was the right choice to do away with it.

I mean, sure, if you're playing at peak times, and you're in a big guild or have a lot of friends playing, and you have the "have group, will travel" it's probably not too hard.

For someone like me, who plays at really random times when no one is on, and let's say it's after they take away the "have group, will travel," or before it existed. The chances of me finding a group my level (assuming I am questing in Nagrand at the appropriate level) is zero. The chances of me getting a friend to help me out who has way outleveled the content is pretty good, but without a way to summon them, it's going to take them awhile to get out there, just to help me kill one guy who is going to give me gear I'm going to outlevel in about two seconds.

It's just a huge waste of time for everyone involved.

I understand what you're saying about how they're supposed to be a challenge, but when they're in irrelevant content like BC, they're not a challenge, even if they're not nerfed, because most of the time people either get a max-level friend to help them, or they just skip it. That's not any more of a challenge, really, just more annoying.
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90 Goblin Mage
11490
I don't see how wanting to play solo makes someone an "arseclown"


When Playing Solo in something deligated as an MMO one has to expect a certain amount of content unattainable . . . those pesky things called GROUP quests being one of them. Now I am not saying dont try to solo them, Hell no, Thats part of the flare of solo play..... but dont complain when something designed to be taken down by 2-5 players cannot be taken out by yourself.

It is a matter of corrupting the concept of teamwork and such. I understand that I cannot attain Dragonwrath without entering a raid - Killing a innumerable bosses to collect the embers, Make some particular boss Kills, invest alot of money........ But what if there was a complaint presented that soloists cant get ahold of Legendaries of current content? Should the requirements be nerfed for them?
Yes, that is abit of a leap and an extreme comparison, but really, what is one group activity to another, in honesty?

Now again, I am not attempting to invalidate the solo playstyle, as I participate in it as much as the next.... but I also understand that things like group quests, Dungeons, Raids and so forth are group activities, barring facerollling Old content from a level cap persepective.
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100 Tauren Shaman
10315
06/11/2012 12:46 PMPosted by Writhe
I don't see how wanting to play solo makes someone an "arseclown"


When Playing Solo in something deligated as an MMO one has to expect a certain amount of content unattainable . . . those pesky things called GROUP quests being one of them.


Firstly, I intensely disagree with this, especially when combined with your "me, myself online" joke. MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. Which means there are a lot of people playing at the same time. There is nothing implicit in that acronym that would lead someone to believe that there was unobtainable content in the game without a group of five people. The only reason that you expect it is because you have experience in this genre, and so far, it's been the norm to throw some of that in there. That doesn't mean it has to be there, or that someone new to the genre would expect it. I realize this has nothing really to do with the point at hand, I just wanted you to know that I completely disagree with that statement and assumption. Now, to get back to the current discussion:

I understand that I cannot attain Dragonwrath without entering a raid - Killing a innumerable bosses to collect the embers, Make some particular boss Kills, invest alot of money........ But what if there was a complaint presented that soloists cant get ahold of Legendaries of current content? Should the requirements be nerfed for them?
Yes, that is abit of a leap and an extreme comparison, but really, what is one group activity to another, in honesty?


The difference is that raids and dungeons are entirely built on the group dynamic. The first one you ever do at the appropriate level, you need a group for. The last one you ever do at the appropriate level, you need a group for. Occasionally if you outlevel the content, you can go back and solo it if you feel like it. Questing is exactly the opposite. It's almost entirely built on being able to solo content, with some group quests thrown in randomly that, at lower levels, completely disrupted the process unless you already happened to be in a five-person group, and how often does that happen? They are purposely completely opposite systems, it isn't fair to compare one to the other.

And even if you do, well, here's the thing about dungeons: RDF. If I want to do a lowbie dungeon at the appropriate level, they've given me the tools to do so. That's not so with group quests. Maybe the cross-realm zones they're implementing will change that, it's hard to say, but at this point, no such tool exists.

At this point, in the form the game currently exists in, group quests in old content are archaic. Your attachment to them is most likely a sentimental one, from back when they were a viable source of game content. Back in the BC days, I liked that Durn was a group quest. I'll even admit the first time I noticed he wasn't any more, I did experience a little bit of sadness. And then as soon as I went to level through that content at the appropriate level, I never looked back. If that was still a group quest now, I absolutely would have skipped over it forever. And what's the sense of having content in the game that most people purposely avoid, when it's so easy to make it viable again?
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66 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
They also still have the Ring of Blood available to do as a group on your own realm in the appropriate areas. Even that is hardly a challenge anymore though, considering how ability scaling and gear changes have affected damage at those levels. And even still, how often do you see a level appropriate group going in there? I think the only reason I would now would be to see if I could 2 man it just for lolz.
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100 Gnome Priest
17750
Questing already is convenient. These group quests that had the elite mobs changed did nothing to hold back a player's ability to quest since they were almost always the very last quest in their chain. It just meant that there would be that handful of quests you have to find a few others in order to complete or you could just skip them altogether. It gave you an option for a different style of quest that some players found fun.

And this triggers a thought in my head. Once again, we see the impact of what the removal of the global LFG channel did. Why is it so hard to get a group together? Because you either have to hope there is someone else in the zone who wants to do it or you had to travel back to a city to spam trade, and that would be a waste of time that could be spent questing.

If the LFG channel was still there, you could use that and players questing in Terokkar Forest, Netherstorm or even Howling Fjord could go "hey that's a quest I want to get done, let me come join you". I can't ever remember struggling to find a group for a group quest in BC. Other players usually jumped at the chance, sometimes even if they had already done it. I rarely had problems in Wrath getting more for a group quest until they took out the LFG channel. Then it started getting hard.

You wouldn't have to rely on an 85 to come help you because you'd be able to find other close to your own level to do it with you.


By the time, I would've gotten an 85 to come solo it for me (which also would defeat the purpose of the "challenge") i would've been onto the next area.

I can use this as the start of an argument for why LFR is a bad thing but I'd better not or I won't get anything done today.
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66 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
06/11/2012 02:29 PMPosted by Joynal
I can't ever remember struggling to find a group for a group quest in BC.

Aren't you talking about during BC? Because I'm pretty sure no one's arguing against group quests for current content.

There are probably about ten people lvl 60-70 in the whole of Outlands at any given time, and that's being generous. Chances that more than one of those people will want to come to Nagrand to do a group quest when you are ready to do it are slim to none. It is like that for most older content. I do feel a pang of regret to see the mobs that used to cause me pain and suffering brought down to a solo-able level, but at this point in the game and with all the changes they've made to the levelling experience, it only makes sense.

However, I still would like to see powerful wandering elites that may not even give you time to /vanish before crushing you like a bug. Just to keep things in perspective.
Edited by Grimms on 6/11/2012 2:49 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Shaman
10315
Questing already is convenient. These group quests that had the elite mobs changed did nothing to hold back a player's ability to quest since they were almost always the very last quest in their chain. It just meant that there would be that handful of quests you have to find a few others in order to complete or you could just skip them altogether. It gave you an option for a different style of quest that some players found fun.


No, it didn't hold back the ability to quest, you're right there. What I meant was it halted the flow of the questing. The group quests were so few and far between to begin with, that most of the time what happened (for me, at least, and several people I know) was that you ignored them until the end, and then you spent 15 minutes spamming for a group, or asking people you knew, and then waiting for everyone to show up. Without the group quests you are able to complete the quest on your own at any point during your questing and then move on to the next thing. It makes it smoother, without having to skip it over. If they had bumped them all down to require, say, two players of the appropriate level, I would be okay with that, too, because finding one other person isn't insanely difficult, and after a couple of levels you could come back and solo it if that was your choice. But having a group quest like Durn where you had to have a full five-person team at appropriate level to complete would just be wasted now that the content has gone so far beyond that level.

I can't ever remember struggling to find a group for a group quest in BC. Other players usually jumped at the chance, sometimes even if they had already done it. I rarely had problems in Wrath getting more for a group quest until they took out the LFG channel. Then it started getting hard.

You wouldn't have to rely on an 85 to come help you because you'd be able to find other close to your own level to do it with you.


I don't have problems now finding a group for Cata content, because it's current, and easily accessible. That's my whole point with this. I'm not saying get rid of all group quests, but I AM glad to see it gone in old content, because most of the players who don't need to go there just don't want to anymore. It's a pretty obnoxious journey to Nagrand from Orgrimmar if the only reason you're going is to kill one thing to help out a friend. Sure, I have some great friends who will do that for me, but I don't want to have to ask them because I know how annoying that trip is. Wrath is the same. Unless you're hearthed in Dalaran, getting to Icecrown is just the most obnoxious thing ever for people who don't like traveling, or are busy doing something else. With the Cata content, it's no big deal... people are sitting around Orgrimmar putting up auctions or whatever, it's not going to take very long for them to grab a portal to Uldum and help me with something and then hearth back. Not so for BC or Wrath areas.

I'm not against group quests in current content or populated areas. I'm just glad they got rid of them in the out of the way places that no one sticks around in. I feel like that decision was sensible, and despite my nostalgia for vanilla and BC, I fully support it. It makes the game more fun for me. I can understand how people might miss the group quests, but I think that the nerf was much more beneficial to questing flow and just general fun while questing, than hurtful to it. That last sentence was a bad one, but I think you probably can figure out what it meant. :)
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66 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
06/11/2012 02:58 PMPosted by Yellowflower
The group quests were so few and far between to begin with, that most of the time what happened (for me, at least, and several people I know) was that you ignored them until the end, and then you spent 15 minutes spamming for a group, or asking people you knew, and then waiting for everyone to show up.

Not to mention the fact that even when they were current, many of the older groups quests were chains, and needed differently sized groups for different parts of the chain. So, sometimes you'd be running through it with one or two people, and one would leave, so you'd find someone else and have to go back and help them with the first part of the quest that you'd already done, rinse, repeat. By the time you got to the finale, it's been over an hour and you're late for whatever, so you have to leave, then hope that you can find a spot in someone else's group for the last guy.

That's an extreme example, but as it pertains to now, there are a lot of chain quests that used to include elites. It's hard enough to find five people your level who aren't busy with RDF as it is - trying to get an organized group of people who all have time to go through a chain of quests which you will outlevel the reward of by the time you are done with them is just a ridiculous thing to expect.

So, yeah, you can skip them. Which makes them obsolete and pointless. At least this way, people still get to enjoy some of the content of the game which would otherwise be completely ignored.
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85 Orc Warrior
10130
Joynal:

The fact of the matter is, World of Warcraft is fundamentally different now than it once was. "Endgame" is no longer what you do at the end of the game, but rather where the real game starts. 1-85 right now takes literally no time at all.

In my personal and frank opinion, it is a real tragedy, and it is one of a few reasons why players now sit in Orgrimmar / Stormwind for hours on end thinking that they have nothing to do.

As it is now, if Durn was left dfficult, then you would sit in general chat, type /who, and realize that you were probably the only one in the zone, because everyone is already level 85.

The game, and its activities, are currently made with the presumption that you either are already 85, or very close to it. You don't hear, "My level 45 rogue", because levels are irrelevant. You only hear "My rogue", because if it isn't 85 yet, then you haven't really played it very much.
Edited by Kerrath on 6/11/2012 3:37 PM PDT
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100 Gnome Priest
17750

I don't have problems now finding a group for Cata content, because it's current, and easily accessible.

What group content in Cata? There is absolutely nothing in Cata that needed a group to complete while leveling, outside of dungeon or BG grinding and Crucible of Carnage.

@Kerrath: Are you enjoying WoW more now as a result of anything interesting to do being limited to 85 and not before? Would you be enjoying it if you had never played WoW before this year and had started as a new player?

There were so many little fun things to do quest-wise that are gone now, and they could be enjoyed at any level.

I especially miss the Marshal Windsor/Lady Prestor confrontation in Stormwind. That was something I was able to participate in at any level, and in fact did participate in before I was a high enough level to even start the quest chain. Once I had done it on my own right, I would go back and do it with other players because it was fun.

Durn used to be fun. Now he's just another mob.

Last Rites used to be fun. Now Valanar is just another mob.

Battle for Undercity - gone altogether.

And go back to my point about the LFG channel - if I wanted a group for Durn I could have been using that to reach people leveling in multiple zones, not just rely on any in Nagrand. But then the questing zones are empty now because people would rather sit on their butts in SW and Orgrimmar to dungeon queue.

I understand that the game has changed. But that doesn't mean we should take away all the little fun things that were available along the way. Because then you really do just turn leveling into one boring grind.
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66 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
I don't have problems now finding a group for Cata content, because it's current, and easily accessible.


What group content in Cata? There is absolutely nothing in Cata that needed a group to complete while leveling, outside of dungeon or BG grinding and Crucible of Carnage.

Which is Cata content, which she can find a group for.

06/11/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Joynal
@Kerrath: Are you enjoying WoW more now as a result of anything interesting to do being limited to 85 and not before? Would you be enjoying it if you had never played WoW before this year and had started as a new player?


06/11/2012 03:34 PMPosted by Kerrath
In my personal and frank opinion, it is a real tragedy


06/11/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Joynal
There were so many little fun things to do quest-wise that are gone now, and they could be enjoyed at any level.

Yes, the little fun things are important. However, I really don't think that quests you can't complete alone and can't find a group for count as such.
06/11/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Joynal
Durn used to be fun. Now he's just another mob.

You yourself said that the only reason you attempted Durn was because of your experience with him when he was current and you went into it expecting to die. A newer player won't have that - all they'll have is the ability to look at him and be all like "oh... well, !@#$" because they can't get a group together to kill him. There are plenty of other places you can go to get killed at level 64 for old times sake. However, if you are on a quest chain and youcan't find a group or some higher level to come hold your hand through it, well, you're %^-* out of luck.

06/11/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Joynal
Battle for Undercity - gone altogether.

I didn't realize they took this out, and it's too bad they did because it was awesome, and kind of important lore-wise. But I am pretty sure I did it alone, not with a group. I did see other players there when I did it because at the time it was current content, so I don't know if I would have been able to do it without them, but I think it was set up so that the NPCs did most of the work and you'd get through it no matter how many people you were with.

06/11/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Joynal
And go back to my point about the LFG channel - if I wanted a group for Durn I could have been using that to reach people leveling in multiple zones, not just rely on any in Nagrand. But then the questing zones are empty now because people would rather sit on their butts in SW and Orgrimmar to dungeon queue.

I think you'd still have a really hard time getting a group together for Durn for a lot of reasons. The most notable of which:
-There still wouldn't be that many people around your level interested in questing. They can get better gear and faster levelling through RDF.

06/11/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Joynal
I understand that the game has changed. But that doesn't mean we should take away all the little fun things that were available along the way. Because then you really do just turn leveling into one boring grind.
I completely agree with you. Levelling should be fun, and the little things Blizzard puts into the game like grey items with flavor text and randomly awesome looking green items with totally unique models are things that make it obvious that they enjoyed creating the game as much as they hope we'll enjoy playing it.
I just don't agree that group quests in content that is no longer relevant count toward that.
Quests like this one do give me hope, though:
*SPOILER ALERT*
If you have not quested in the badlands since Cata. Go do it. It's funny. And don't go to this link.
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27715
Edited by Grimms on 6/11/2012 5:59 PM PDT
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