World of Warcraft®

06/11/2012 05:51 PMPosted by Thelanora

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that most people did not even use LFG channel

I remember the lfg channel well. When I was looking to do dungeons that were below max level content... guess what? I never once found more than one other person through LFG channel, and even that was rare. It also was named the new barrens chat at one point, if that says anything to you.

edit: fs does not spell for

06/11/2012 05:24 PMPosted by Grimms

You yourself said that the only reason you attempted Durn was because of your experience with him when he was current and you went into it expecting to die.

And if he was still an elite needing a group, after I died I would have waited until more players were online (3am is not such a time) and pulled a group together for it. Would it have been hard to get it together? Sure, but I'd still do it because it was something fun to do.

But you're right, new players have no idea that there used to be fun things to do while leveling. Those things are now few and far between, leveling is just a grind to get to end game now.

If people think endlessly grinding the same dungeons over and over and over again is fun group content to use for leveling, the more power to them because it turns my stomach to the point that I rarely queue for dungeons while leveling. I would far rather be questing with a group where there is something new to see every 15 minutes instead of getting dumped right back in something I just finished doing.

Leveling content shouldn't have to be relevant to current content, and there's still no reason why group quests can't be an optional part of it.

And I probably know what you're talking about in Badlands. I agree it's a lot of fun. Sadly, the same formula hasn't been pulled off well in beta. There's an Alliance chain Jade Forest that players have complained about (I don't know if there was a similar chain for Horde). There was another chain in Valley of the Four Winds that did something similar, but was interpersed with more traditional quests and focused more on trying to convince you how awesome a player you are (which was laughable considering you were generally being asked to push the only button you were given when an indicator flashed) than being entertaining.There isn't nearly enough of the Badlands-style fun getting added.

I have never seen the LFG channel be used. Like Thel said, only through guild/friends list and spamming Shat or the zone you're in.

With so little people in the zones, it doesn't make sense to have an elite mob that takes 5 people to down. It worked great when it was current content but it no longer is. For me, it's very frustrating to get through a quest chain and not be able to finish the last piece because I can't get together a group. I don't feel comfortable always bugging a higher level friend to faceroll an elite mob for me because I can't find the group to conquer it, and where's the challenge in that anyways?

Maybe questing in Cata is easier, but they revamped a lot of the quests to make them more streamlined. There are so many changes that most of the quests are new experiences anyways. We have 85 levels to get through, and yes you level quicker, but that's 25 more than vanilla and if it were to take the same amount of time leveling that extra 25 levels as it did for the 1-60 levels in vanilla it'd be one annoying grind.

06/11/2012 06:10 PMPosted by Joynal

There isn't nearly enough of the Badlands-style fun getting added.

It's especially funny considering Badlands used to be the most boring place to quest ever.

06/11/2012 06:10 PMPosted by Joynal

There was another chain in Valley of the Four Winds that did something similar, but was interpersed with more traditional quests and focused more on trying to convince you how awesome a player you are (which was laughable considering you were generally being asked to push the only button you were given when an indicator flashed) than being entertaining.

Yeah, as far as subject changes go, I think they consider it raid training to put in quests like "You have to get out of the fire now" and "You have to do this specific thing now".

I'm divided on it because you used to have a lot more time to learn your class during levelling (which took longer) and low level dungeons (which were harder). There were certain classes/specs that you actually couldn't level alone without a great amount of knowledge of the game, and even then if you didn't have help, you'd constantly be having to do quests 3 levels below 'yellow'. So by the time you got to level 40 or so, you were forced to have at least some knowledge of your class. I did level a healer during the Great Healer Drought of 2008, and since it was annoying as hell, I learned a lot. That is not the case any more.

On the other hand, when I level an alt, I don't want it to take a long time. I know where to go to read about what I should probably be doing and I have RDF to supply me with a constant source of random faceless nobodies whose opinions I could care less about, hence I don't mind unleashing my noobish mistakes on them until I learn what I'm really supposed to do.

This is the game now. Either we need to learn to enjoy it, quit, or find some way to convince Blizzard to make it what we want it to be. Meanwhile, we always have the forums to swap stories about "the old days".

Just because there aren't a ton of group quests in Cata content doesn't mean that there weren't a lot of times when I asked for a group for Cata content. I'm really not very good at this game, and I sometimes have a hard time doing appropriate level things alone, on this character. A lot of people have stopped playing now that I used to play with, but even quite a ways into those dailies out in the middle of Hyjal... people I knew would group up together all the time for those, and they didn't even require a group to do. Plus, that wasn't even the point, really. The point was that I'm in favor of there being group quests in that content. If they added in a huge chain of group quests in Uldum, I would love that. Because people would want to do it with me. Even if they didn't need the xp, it would be level appropriate, so they'd be getting a decent amount of gold for the quests. I can't think of anyone who has been sitting around at 65 hoping someone would need their help in killing Durn. Which brings me back to the same point: having group quests at 65 at this point in the evolution of this game is completely pointless and more annoying than fun.

I disagree that the game starts at 85. Not for everyone. For people who love raiding, yes. I haven't done a single Cata raid... I haven't done an appropriate level raid since Kara. But I still manage to find plenty to do. The game is still fun, and the quests are still fun. Along with the Badlands ones that Stoni mentioned, I particularly enjoyed the Maximillian of Northshire chain. I have one character at 85, but I have another 10 or so in between 30 and 80, because I really enjoy the questing and leveling, and the professions, and achievements, and holidays, and that kind of stuff. There's still plenty of stuff to do in this game, it's just that not everyone finds the same things fun. And also I've noticed lately a lot of nostalgia clouding people's thoughts... yes, things used to be different. I loved vanilla, and I loved BC, and if there was a vanilla and/or BC server, I would have alts on both that I would play regularly, and I would enjoy it. But that doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the game now. Sure, sometimes I get wistful about having to run back and forth from the Crossroads to Ratchet, but would I want to take that extra flight point away? Not a chance, not in the current version of the game. It would just feel like such a waste of time doing that run, I would probably skip it, because the leveling is so much faster now. On a vanilla server, absolutely I wouldn't want that flight point to be there.

I don't know... it's weird for me watching this discussion, because I really, really loved the vanilla and BC days, and I was sad, too, when they took out the wandering sons of arugal. But at the same time, I enjoy questing in Silverpine waaaay more now. I know a lot of people have differing opinions about this, but I think the game is more fun now than it was back then. Yes, the community has suffered because of the changes, but without any changes the community would have suffered a lot more, because a lot of the people who left would have no reason to come back.

And Joy, as for how you would have waited until a busier time to find a group... well, that's great for you, but I don't have that luxury. My schedule is such that I'm almost NEVER on at peak hours. The chances of me being in-game at a time when there are enough 65s around to kill Durn are so minimal that I can guarantee I would have outleveled it by then, rendering the entire thing completely pointless. For someone like me, removing the group quests at lower level content has only been for the good. I haven't experienced a single negative side effect, other than nostalgia for how things used to be. I did the Durn quest in a group when I went through it on Yellow, and it was fun, and I loved it. I can guarantee you if it was still a group quest, I would never have done it again. I think most people would have skipped it, considering how fast you can outlevel it now. Arguing about how fast the leveling process is now is an entirely different bag of chips. I, personally, don't like to see it so fast. But I don't think adding low level group quests back in would help that at all... I would still just skip them and go do a different zone, or grind, or dungeon run. I just don't think that in the way the game is currently set up, that lower level group quests would add to the fun at all.

I can't really say much about the LFG channel... I didn't even know it existed.

Yay, wall 'o' text!

You're right, it doesn't get used anymore because it's now limited to the cities. Back when it was global, and before LFD, it was used constantly. I could find groups for quests there in addition to dungeon groups. Now it's just used by the gold sellers, or players who think it means "Looking For Guild".

If the game is truly about end game now, and leveling is irrelevant other than as annoying step to get to 85, then maybe leveling should be removed.

Pick a faction.

Pick a race from that faction.

Go to Boot Camp. Do quests that let you experience what it's like to tank, heal, melee DPS, range DPS.

Pick a class from the ones available to your race.

Go to Basic Training. Do quests that teach you what you class skills do and how some combine together to create a more powerful attack/defense/heal. Get gear that will be starter level gear for when you finish training.

Graduate and be sent out into the world as an agent of your faction (or choose another class and return to Basic Training if you decide you don't like the play style of the one just completed). You can quest to experience lore and get items for transmog. You can group for dungeons to start knocking away at the enemies of Azeroth and gain more powerful gear. You can join battlegrounds to keep the other faction in check and gain more powerful gear. You can raid. You can do arenas.

You can pretty much do everything that's in the game and have it feel relevant at the time you do it because its no longer there to help you level, it's there for you to do what's fun for you.

You should really go to the suggestions forum with that one, Joy.

I'm questing on my warlock in Nagrand. I get the quest to kill Durn the Hungerer.

Recklessly, I set out to kill him. I know I'm about to be pulped like a g%!!#fruit.

I remember fighting him back in BC and Wrath. Elite, with something like 110k HP. Back in BC, you needed a 5 man group if you were going to take him on at level 66-68. You would clear all the mobs out of a large area so when he did his knockback on the tank, you didn't aggro anything else. Some groups even had extra help there to attack once he got tapped.

I figure I have heirlooms on my side to make up some of the difference, not to mention much better knowledge of the game. It doesn't change the fact that I also know I'm about to get left a bloody smear on the ground (or would be if Forsaken had any blood).

I get to Durn.

He's a normal mob with just over 12k health.

/cry

What has happened to this game? Even leveling needs that touch of epic challenge and adventure on occasion. But evidently all the elite group quest mobs got nerfed back when 4.3 hit.

I -hated- doing that bozo, I'd skip that quest, I'm mostly a solo player and finding someone to group with has become a nightmare. And yes all the elites in Northrend & Outland has been nerfed also the amount of XP it takes to get through those zones as well.

It's sad but I hated being stuck in Outland.

Things change, soon they will nerf cata content to level through to make it faster.

@ joynal

RE: your latest idea, you forgot to include the most important part, which is, what is your plan to show the players that thrall is better than them and more of a protagonist than the player character?

On a serious note, I actually really enjoy 1-60 and 80-85. The quest design for those brackets is exceptionally well done in my opinion. The only problem I have with it, literally, is that those portions of the game are underpopulated. I remember when levelling in BC on my paladin, I could find fellow players at my level any time I wanted, both horde and alliance, and it gave me the feeling that the world was alive and active.

The characters I've levelled post-wotlk, I was lucky to find another player in the open world ever.

06/11/2012 07:01 PMPosted by Grimms

You should really go to the suggestions forum with that one, Joy.

You mean the one they took away? ;-) But I could see some of the raging that it has the potential to start. I might just put it in general if I got bored.

Kerrath, the entire game is underpopulated outside of Stormwind and Orgrimmar. I know your new server has a much higher population than BWR does so what you'd see might be different but I'd probably be lucky to find 10 players out questing at this moment in any given zone if I did a /who.

Loch Modan - 2 players
Northern Stranglethorn - 3 players, 2 of them 85
Searing Gorge - 2 players
Blasted Lands - 1 level 85
Darkshore - omg 8 players
Southern Barrens - 3 players
Tanaris - 1 player (guess no one is wiping in DS atm)
Felwood - 3, all 85
Hellfire Peninsula - 11, 3 are 80+
Nagrand - no one
Blade's Edge - 2 85s
Mount Hyjal - 8, 4 85s
Deepholm - 6, 2 85s
Uldum - 8, 4 85s

Granted, Monday night isn't prime playing time. I probably should try this on a Saturday afternoon. But hard to say how cross realm will change it.

06/11/2012 08:48 PMPosted by Joynal

Kerrath, the entire game is underpopulated outside of Stormwind and Orgrimmar. I know your new server has a much higher population than BWR does so what you'd see might be different but I'd probably be lucky to find 10 players out questing at this moment in any given zone if I did a /who.

Malganis has a high population, but it's the same story. In any given zone (discluding durotar) you'll find that the total number of players is ~1-4 with rarely any more.

06/11/2012 08:58 PMPosted by Thelanora

Yeap, because it has nothing to do with population and everything to with everyone just concentrating on getting to and being at level cap

Which is precisely why everyone is so "bored" at level cap. Well, part of it. There are a lot of things that cumulatively add up to the level of dissatisfaction that we see in wow.

Players nowadays have the basic expectation that they can win without trying.

-It's why levelling up takes no time at all--because if it takes more than a couple of weeks of casual play (less than 10 hours per week) to hit the level cap, it's accused of being a "grind fest". Back in the day, "grind fest" had nothing to do with how long it took to reach the end. It referred to what you had to do to reach the end, ie kill mobs without objectives and storylines guiding you.

-It's why you don't even have to interact with other players to do group content like instances. I mean, all you have to do is push a button and you're automatically placed in a queue that will set you up to do the dungeon and boom you're there. Sure, it's convenient, but convenience begets misery.

-It's why gear is so easily acquired. You don't even have to play through old content. It becomes literally irrelevant.

-It's why raid content is periodically nerfed on hard mode. You know what I don't get? Why did the ICC buff and the DS nerf even APPLY to hard mode? I thought the point of multiple difficulty levels was to allow players who wanted to see the content to do it on one difficulty, and players who watned to be challenged by the content could do it on another difficulty. If you make hard mode cease to be challenging, then what's the point of even making hard mode?

-It's why raid content is periodically nerfed on hard mode. You know what I don't get? Why did the ICC buff and the DS nerf even APPLY to hard mode? I thought the point of multiple difficulty levels was to allow players who wanted to see the content to do it on one difficulty, and players who watned to be challenged by the content could do it on another difficulty. If you make hard mode cease to be challenging, then what's the point of even making hard mode?

To make players feel powerful.

Most players aren't going to care about the zone nerf in play, they're just going to care that they got the kill down. They have killed not just normal but heroic bosses. They are powerful.

Same reason why they aren't doing the itemization squash that was brought up at Blizzcon. Players feel more powerful when they damage something for 50k instead of 5k, even if the net effect to target HP is the same % due to scaling.

At least some players do get things down on heroic modes pre-nerf. Those who are truly up to that challenge get their chance before Blizzard puts the nerf in to make the rest happy. Players who get a late start still have their chance by turning the buff off, though that's almost never going to happen in practice. If you get the same rewards for killing with 20% nerf as with no nerf, then of course you might as well kill it nerfed. You're going to have a very hard time finding 9 or 24 other like-minded players willing to do it without a nerf.

06/11/2012 11:52 PMPosted by Joynal

To make players feel powerful.

That doesn't even make sense, though. Power is something that is determined relative to everyone else. If everyone is toting around Savior of Azeroth, then Savior of Azeroth isn't a testament to your power.

I know that on BWR it's a lot harder to achieve since ambition and talent are both extremely hard to find, and I'm not going to hate on that, but on Mal'ganis, there are 40(!) guilds with 8/8h. My guild got it 11th on server (we have our excuses for being further behind, but I'll leave that for another time) and my guildmates are already saying "don't wear savior".

It's Champion of the Frozen Wastes as far as I'm concerned.

06/11/2012 11:52 PMPosted by Joynal

If you get the same rewards for killing with 20% nerf as with no nerf, then of course you might as well kill it nerfed. You're going to have a very hard time finding 9 or 24 other like-minded players willing to do it without a nerf.

Artificially imposed challenges are irrelevant for the exact reason you said.

I didn't say it makes them powerful. I said it makes them *feel* powerful. There's a huge difference there.

As you said, it's relative. When enough around you have it, it usually doesn't mean as much. But not that many players care what is happening on other servers so Mal'ganis having 40+ guilds with Savior isn't going to mean much to players on on the lower pop servers, which might only have one or two. The title has the potential for more power on those servers in the minds of those who take the heroic raid kills seriously as a result.

It's also subjective. It's not going to matter how many or how few have an achievement to someone who doesn't care about that achievement. For someone who thinks the achievement has great meaning for whatever reason, the achievement is going to have more power.

And then the overall feeling of power comes from a combination of the two. It's going to be different for every player because of the subjective component.

For the player who wants the achievement bad enough, it's a very powerful thing even if many around them already have it. It is the carrot that keeps them playing the game.

And playing the game keeps the fee income rolling in for Blizzard. Give everyone the carrot too soon, it's not as desirable and they might stop playing. Withhold it too long, again they might stop playing. So you make the carrot super hard to get at first to help make it more desirable to those who pay attention to those things, then you gradually bring it closer until more and more players are able to get it. It's unlikely that it willl ever get to the point that everyone will have it, but you make sure enough get it to keep them happy.

I still don't see how achievements have "power." Is this something people really feel over achievements? Cause if so, that's kinda sad. What does this power do?

Some people do and it is pretty sad. In the long run, any feeling of power gained does nothing good since such power doesn't really exist.

I'm also not complaining the nerfs, though part of me also wishes they weren't there. Without the nerfs, I doubt we'd be more than 4/8H at this point and definitely no more than 5/8H. It's been fun to see where we've hit the walls and what it took to push past them. But then hitting those walls is what drives us to improve, to find little ways to get better. That's part of the process I enjoy (though at my own speed, which is a little slow for some). Most don't.