Natural origin + conservation of energy = ?

90 Dwarf Hunter
16860
I have thought about it lately and come to the conclusion that because of the law of conservation of energy, energy not being able to be created or destroyed via a natural process, that this would make a completely natural origin impossible. I am not here to argue this as much as I am here to hear the rebuttals for such an argument for those that would have answers to this problem; a natural process or whatever that has been observed where energy is created or destroyed with no method or machine designed to do so (as energy would have to come into existence without any help at all from other energy or matter). I am sure there are explanations out there and would like to wrap my mind around them and be able to respond to them when I am arguing my point in a real situation.
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58 Gnome Death Knight
9545
I'm not a bio-dude, and am playing devil's advocate more than anything here, but I think the energy in natural origin is usually considered to be obtained via cosmic rays, radiation, or lightning. I don't think geothermal heat is usually considered, cause there's not enough of it to jump start life.

Now, that being said, I haven't heard anything recently about trying to create life from scratch in a lab, but as of a couple of years ago, no body had gotten close, and what they did get wasn't really all that good or complex.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16860
The problem is that energy must have come from somewhere and the law of conservation of energy pretty much means that it couldn't have been naturally created, and if there is somehow a process to create or destroy energy, then it must have been performed without the use of energy or even matter. We are talking about nothing existing and then energy shows up, not a scientific or natural method or reaction that creates it, but the simple appearance of the energy from absolute nothingness. It's a very difficult subject to think about, nothingness is.
Edited by Spinnerdh on 6/11/2012 2:28 PM PDT
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58 Gnome Death Knight
9545
Well, technically, the outside energy from the things I listed isn't creating energy. It already exists.

Also, with respect to your statement, not really the actual topic here, there's a whole lot of energy stored in the vacuum, i.e. nothingness.
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85 Draenei Shaman
1420
If it didn't happen naturally what's your theory on how energy came about then? Did something that is "supernatural" create it? If that's the case, where did what made energy come from? Everything (likely) has an origin, whether the origin is known or hard to believe.

Edit: I like to think our universe (and the energy in it) came about from another universe. Though it doesn't explain where the other universe came from, I find the idea of multiverses interesting.
Edited by Saalyn on 6/11/2012 7:54 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5330
Energy as we observe it naturally is weird. The more you delve into the science, the more you'll understand it and you'll see that the total net energy in the universe is actually 0.

Look into vacuum fluctuations
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Energy as we observe it naturally is weird. The more you delve into the science, the more you'll understand it and you'll see that the total net energy in the universe is actually 0.

Look into vacuum fluctuations


I like this guys post, you cant think of energy in the context we usually think of it (the ability to do work etc). The thermodynamic laws are true to all our pratical considerations of energy but they wont hold up when we consider the origin and terminus of a completely closed system. When such a system is made it will contain a set amount of energy the amount determined by the properties of the system

The above poster points out that the total energy of the universe seen in thermodynamics as a closed system by definition is 0. Meaning that energy is a manifestation of a difference in two points of the closed system whatever they may be.
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90 Draenei Shaman
6470
The big bang is the original source of energy.
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85 Dwarf Hunter
8525
i think your post points out a proper paradox. just my opinion though.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
9985
If it didn't happen naturally what's your theory on how energy came about then? Did something that is "supernatural" create it? If that's the case, where did what made energy come from? Everything (likely) has an origin, whether the origin is known or hard to believe.

Edit: I like to think our universe (and the energy in it) came about from another universe. Though it doesn't explain where the other universe came from, I find the idea of multiverses interesting.
If something is "supernatural" being super, as in greater than, natural it implies that is not bound by natural laws. You can't dismiss something supernatural by using natural laws. And because we can't use anything else but natural laws we simply cannot dismiss anything supernatural. If energy did not exist at one moment and existed in the next moment, something that is supernatural, as in, not confined by natural laws, is REQUIRED in order for the creation of energy to have occurred.
Edited by Tabuu on 7/9/2012 10:00 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Rogue
6595
This is an argument from ignorance.

You have no reason to think there ever was a beginning for one thing, only your assumption. If it's impossible for something to come from nothing, what makes you think there ever could have once been nothing?

Why is it impossible for you to imagine a naturally occurring eternal state while you're forcing the matter of a state having to come from nothing.

We know self arranging and self replicating algorithms can rise from pure chaos, this is mathematically proven using feedback loops.

The fact you have to force some kind of prime original mover into this equation without having to explain the mover coming from nothing or being eternal betrays a bias or block in your thinking.

And another thing, entropy has nothing to do with biological evolution or self emergent order via feedback loops, because neither evolution through natural selection or the other are closed systems.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
2485
06/11/2012 01:36 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
I have thought about it lately and come to the conclusion that because of the law of conservation of energy, energy not being able to be created or destroyed via a natural process, that this would make a completely natural origin impossible. I am not here to argue this as much as I am here to hear the rebuttals for such an argument for those that would have answers to this problem; a natural process or whatever that has been observed where energy is created or destroyed with no method or machine designed to do so (as energy would have to come into existence without any help at all from other energy or matter). I am sure there are explanations out there and would like to wrap my mind around them and be able to respond to them when I am arguing my point in a real situation.


The law of conservation doesn't say that energy is not able to be created or destroyed via a natural process. It's that energy can not be created nor be destroyed in a closed system.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
2485
If it didn't happen naturally what's your theory on how energy came about then? Did something that is "supernatural" create it? If that's the case, where did what made energy come from? Everything (likely) has an origin, whether the origin is known or hard to believe.

Edit: I like to think our universe (and the energy in it) came about from another universe. Though it doesn't explain where the other universe came from, I find the idea of multiverses interesting.
If something is "supernatural" being super, as in greater than, natural it implies that is not bound by natural laws. You can't dismiss something supernatural by using natural laws. And because we can't use anything else but natural laws we simply cannot dismiss anything supernatural. If energy did not exist at one moment and existed in the next moment, something that is supernatural, as in, not confined by natural laws, is REQUIRED in order for the creation of energy to have occurred.
I don't dismiss it because of "natural laws". I dismiss it because no evidence for the claim has been provided, once some is, I may take it seriously. You just asserted something without providing evidence or explaining why.
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90 Human Mage
12970
To be honest, science still doesn't have a full grasp on what energy is. It's just a result of Newton's equations that somehow winds up always being conserved, no matter what you do with it. Obviously, this mystery quantity has a marked effect on our universe, driving everything that we depend on. But we don't have the faintest clue what this quantity really represents. We give it a label, "energy", in order to make things easier on our minds. But the nature of it is still beyond our grasp.

That said, it's impossible, with our current knowledge, to really know where this energy came from. We know that there is, in the universe, a sort of reservoir of energy inherent in space itself on which everything that we observe rests. But we don't know how deep this reservoir is, how it came to be, or even if we're using the right metaphor. Heck, we're not even sure if we're asking the right questions. So, at our current state of science, it's futile to beat your head over this particular problem. Instead, we can set it aside with the other unanswered questions that we have and wait until we do know more about the nature of what we're asking about and then tackle the problem.
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90 Orc Warlock
13715
To be honest, science still doesn't have a full grasp on what energy is. It's just a result of Newton's equations that somehow winds up always being conserved, no matter what you do with it. Obviously, this mystery quantity has a marked effect on our universe, driving everything that we depend on. But we don't have the faintest clue what this quantity really represents. We give it a label, "energy", in order to make things easier on our minds. But the nature of it is still beyond our grasp.

That said, it's impossible, with our current knowledge, to really know where this energy came from. We know that there is, in the universe, a sort of reservoir of energy inherent in space itself on which everything that we observe rests. But we don't know how deep this reservoir is, how it came to be, or even if we're using the right metaphor. Heck, we're not even sure if we're asking the right questions. So, at our current state of science, it's futile to beat your head over this particular problem. Instead, we can set it aside with the other unanswered questions that we have and wait until we do know more about the nature of what we're asking about and then tackle the problem.


Have you been in a coma for the last 107 years?
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90 Human Mage
12970
08/16/2012 11:06 PMPosted by Vreivai
Have you been in a coma for the last 107 years?

Ooookay... Then tell me what energy is.
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90 Tauren Druid
15705
The energy on Earth, in a nutshell, came from stars that have ended their cycle. Every bit of matter on earth - plant, animal, element - originally came from within another star.

Energy comes to Earth every day in the form of radiation. Energy comes from within the Earth in the form of radiation.

The energy always has been here, and always will be. No energy has been created nor destroyed.

Just because something evolves out of something else does not mean energy was "created". The same energy is there, it's just in a different form.

You may argue Creationism in relation to the origin of the energy in the universe... but that's a different argument. Arguing it in relation to the origin of energy on the Earth is not valid, though. We know where the energy came from; there is no "mystery" on that.
Edited by Breakbeat on 8/22/2012 10:00 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
10630


We know self arranging and self replicating algorithms can rise from pure chaos, this is mathematically proven using feedback loops.


I'm curious what your basis for this is. What we know is actually quite the opposite. Information *never* arises from random processes. It takes an intelligent mind, working with a purpose, to create information. Can you cite the alleged proof you're referring to?
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90 Night Elf Hunter
6525
Science often contradicts itself.

Its funny to argue about creation with a die hard godless scientist. You can say scientific statements that contradict what he says, like the fact that most mutations are harmful. Then he will say stuff like, "Yeah, except the ones that must have happened to get us where we are today!"

I would like to talk to a scientist, as well as a creationist, and hear them both just say:

"We don't really know."
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80 Draenei Paladin
8765
06/11/2012 01:36 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
I have thought about it lately and come to the conclusion that because of the law of conservation of energy, energy not being able to be created or destroyed via a natural process, that this would make a completely natural origin impossible. I am not here to argue this as much as I am here to hear the rebuttals for such an argument for those that would have answers to this problem; a natural process or whatever that has been observed where energy is created or destroyed with no method or machine designed to do so (as energy would have to come into existence without any help at all from other energy or matter). I am sure there are explanations out there and would like to wrap my mind around them and be able to respond to them when I am arguing my point in a real situation.

Something you must understand is that the universe began before there were the laws of physics we enjoy today. This means that literally anything was possible, and by that very concept were the laws of physics conceived because creating laws of physics is impossible unless nothing is. Also, do not forget that one thing that has always been true about the universe is that it is not perfect in any respect. This extends to the laws of physics where energy can be created or destroyed while being converted, or existing in general, but the amount that is created/destroyed is so infinitesimally small that it would never be noticed by us nor anything that we will ever make. This huge universe we live in would have been a billion times the amount of space and matter had it not been for anti-matter, but there was anti-matter and the uneven proportions of matter:anti-matter allowed for our universe to be born and therefore we know nothing is perfect if creation wasn't.
Edited by Sanctieques on 9/9/2012 10:38 PM PDT
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