Reasons for war between Alliance/Horde

90 Tauren Shaman
10525
That's right, I forgot. On multiple occasions Vyrin's said he would simply dismiss the word of the devs if it didn't suit his needs.

Not really sure what to tell you, "bro". I'd like to see you respond to Kellick. That should be a laugh.
Edited by Iyotanka on 6/25/2012 7:15 PM PDT
Reply Quote
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
That's right, I forgot. On multiple occasions Vyrin's said he would simply dismiss the word of the devs if it didn't suit his needs.


Except in this case, it's you dismissing word of Cdev.

06/25/2012 06:31 PMPosted by Kellick
So the blue post would have been a retcon to confirm Barrens flavour text, in your mind?


What blue post? The Cdev answer? That confirmed that the Horde attacked first and that Theramore's intervention was reactionary. If there's another blue post on the subject I'd like to see it.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
8220
... this doesn't make sense. If you are accepting for this argument that Garrosh had aggressive intentions for Kalimdor, then how how would that make the Goblins more or less willing to sell anything to him? "I want all of Kalimdor... but first, let's be friends so I can have your lumber. Then I'll dominate you." ???? How does that make any sense?


Why are you intentionally misconstruing my points?
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
5420
06/25/2012 07:11 PMPosted by Vyrin
And how did they acquire that knowledge? The only point in time that we see in World of Warcraft where they were made aware of it was in Wolfheart, and the only way they were made aware of it was via the fact that Garrosh attacked them.

I dunno. Any of the dozens of highly public events, including a feast for all of Orgrimmar, in which he publicly advocated taking what he wanted from Ashenvale by force, maybe?
Reply Quote
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I dunno. Any of the dozens of highly public events, including a feast for all of Orgrimmar, in which he publicly advocated taking what he wanted from Ashenvale by force, maybe?


Oh, he invited the Alliance to this feast?

If you're going to argue that the Alliance had intelligence that laid clear his intentions then you're not only going to need to do more than just make it up but you're also going to have to explain why the Alliance was blindsided by his attack in Wolfheart AND why the novel makes it explicitly clear that there was no Barrens invasion occurring at the time.
Edited by Vyrin on 6/25/2012 7:21 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Shaman
10525
06/25/2012 07:17 PMPosted by Kyalin
... this doesn't make sense. If you are accepting for this argument that Garrosh had aggressive intentions for Kalimdor, then how how would that make the Goblins more or less willing to sell anything to him? "I want all of Kalimdor... but first, let's be friends so I can have your lumber. Then I'll dominate you." ???? How does that make any sense?


Why are you intentionally misconstruing my points?


You know what? Don't bother. I told you I had a headache and that your point wasn't making any sense. Multiple times in this VERY THREAD you've accused me and at least one other of purposefully playing dumb despite my continued insistence that your point is not as clear as you seem to think.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
5420
06/25/2012 07:20 PMPosted by Vyrin
Oh, he invited the Alliance to this feast?

If you're suggesting the Alliance's spy network is so hilariously inept it doesn't hear word of public announcements to an entire city and capital to its primary rival power that one prospective leader announces his intent to take over the continent, then you've a far lower opinion of the Alliance than I.

As for why they were surprised, maybe they assumed the Horde was as badly struck by the Cataclysm as they were, maybe the technical neutrality of the Barrens made them think attacking two settlements would go unanswered, maybe this, maybe that.

I hardly see how that's relevant considering we've confirmation the earliest blow in this particular iteration of the Alliance/Horde war was struck in the Barrens in response to Garrosh's desire.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
8220
06/25/2012 07:21 PMPosted by Iyotanka


Why are you intentionally misconstruing my points?


You know what? Don't bother. I told you I had a headache and that your point wasn't making any sense. Multiple times in this VERY THREAD you've accused me and at least one other of purposefully playing dumb despite my continued insistence that your point is not as clear as you seem to think.


Of course I've accused you of such. You again left out a material fact that I know you are aware of because it supported your argument.

Honestly, I have time and again supported Night Elven sovereignty. I have time and again spoken against Garrosh's aggression. I have time and again said that Garrosh should have promoted relations with the Night Elves rather than invading Ashenvale, and you have argued with me about those things. But from all that, you get this?

"I want all of Kalimdor... but first, let's be friends so I can have your lumber. Then I'll dominate you." ???? How does that make any sense?


The simple answer, it doesn't, but it makes even less sense to assume that I would be arguing in favor of that given what you and I have discussed in the past.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
5740
Honestly saying that the alliance had no idea as to Garrosh's intentions or motivations really only makes the alliance look even worse.
Reply Quote
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
06/25/2012 07:26 PMPosted by Kellick
If you're suggesting the Alliance's spy network is so hilariously inept it doesn't hear word of public announcements to an entire city and capital to its primary rival power that one prospective leader announces his intent to take over the continent, then you've a far lower opinion of the Alliance than I.


A) It is that inept. Were you not paying attention to how terribly SI:7 performed in Cataclysm?

B) Infiltrating the enemy's capital isn't so easy when your enemy's capital has a grand total of zero Alliance races in it. This isn't like slipping an American into a Soviet operation, this is like slipping an American into a Zorblaxxian operation.

06/25/2012 07:26 PMPosted by Kellick
I hardly see how that's relevant considering we've confirmation the earliest blow in this particular iteration of the Alliance/Horde war was struck in the Barrens in response to Garrosh's desire.


Uh, no, we don't have anything to suggest there. Nowhere in the Cdev answer does it say "and this was the first blow struck in the war." In fact, it says the opposite, that the Alliance's attack on the Barrens was in RETALIATION to the Horde's designs on Ashenvale as revealed in Wolfheart, and the Cataclysm manual confirms this. As has been pointed out (and subsequently ignored by you) "wants to" and "is acting to the end of" are not mutually exclusive statements, and both Wolfheart and the Cataclysm manual support the notion that it was Garrosh's actions, not desires, that led to the Barrens invasion.

You're outright lying and making things up Kellick, as per usual.
Edited by Vyrin on 6/25/2012 7:58 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Shaman
10525
06/25/2012 07:44 PMPosted by Kyalin
The simple answer, it doesn't, but it makes even less sense to assume that I would be arguing in favor of that given what you and I have discussed in the past.


It's almost as if... that's why I was confused.

The thing that seems to make the least amount of sense being the thing I didn't understand. Shocking, I know. In any case, it doesn't matter anymore.

06/25/2012 07:55 PMPosted by Vyrin
You're outright lying and making things up Kellick, as per usual.


Uh oh, Kellick! His aggressive dispostion is now aimed at you!
Edited by Iyotanka on 6/25/2012 8:06 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15250
06/25/2012 07:55 PMPosted by Vyrin
If you're suggesting the Alliance's spy network is so hilariously inept it doesn't hear word of public announcements to an entire city and capital to its primary rival power that one prospective leader announces his intent to take over the continent, then you've a far lower opinion of the Alliance than I.


A) It is that inept. Were you not paying attention to how terribly SI:7 performed in Cataclysm?

B) Infiltrating the enemy's capital isn't so easy when your enemy's capital has a grand total of zero Alliance races in it. This isn't like slipping an American into a Soviet operation, this is like slipping an American into a Zorblaxxian operation.


We know that Thrall had human spies (ref: Rise of the Horde), are you saying it's impossible that the Alliance had spies from at least one of the Horde races?

We know there's at least one SI:7 member who's a Goblin.
Reply Quote
21 Orc Mage
400
The war was coming in to the world since the beginning of WOW the eastern plauge lands tower trailer even says, so lets not talk about who started this both sides are at fault. What we should talk about is how the Horde plans to celebrate once we win.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Shaman
10525
06/25/2012 08:29 PMPosted by Kynrind
High elves disguised as Blood elves, or a Blood elf that is not completely following the Sin'dorie ideal and is willing to feed information. Hell, there's got to be orcs, trolls, goblins and even taurens that are willing to pass along information for various reasons from money, to a desire to stop/hinder/change the Horde as it is.


http://www.wowhead.com/npc=38033

Or just normal spies haha
Edited by Iyotanka on 6/25/2012 8:34 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
0
I'd put the Alliance somehow not knowing about Garrosh's intentions as pure crappy arsed story writers and lore designers with little to no military or intelligence experience. SL:7 would have to be run by blind drunken monkeys to have missed that or not have agents in the Horde.

B) Infiltrating the enemy's capital isn't so easy when your enemy's capital has a grand total of zero Alliance races in it. This isn't like slipping an American into a Soviet operation, this is like slipping an American into a Zorblaxxian operation.


High elves disguised as Blood elves, or a Blood elf that is not completely following the Sin'dorie ideal and is willing to feed information. Hell, there's got to be orcs, trolls, goblins and even taurens that are willing to pass along information for various reasons from money, to a desire to stop/hinder/change the Horde as it is.


The very fact that we have to go into such maybes as "what if there are orcs that are being bribed to tell the Alliance these things!" Just shows that the developers just failed horribly at connecting the dots for the players. Honestly these back and forth arguments in which neither side actually has enough evidence to prove their point is stemmed from poor writing and world building.

Honestly I think that both die hard alliance and die hard horde fans are sniping at the wrong people :-P
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
8220
SL:7 would have to be run by blind drunken monkeys to have missed that or not have agents in the Horde.


I'm not sure about blind, but we DO have the evil monkey in Chris's closet.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Shaman
10525
I think more the problem is that the story writers weren't writing a story to be so intently picked apart. Don't get me wrong - they do make mistakes and I'm not saying otherwise.

But I don't think their idea of a "good story" involves knowing whether or not the opportunity costs of a war against the Alliance outweighed other possible alternatives.

I do wish about certain things they would at least be clearer, as you've indicated they sometimes aren't.
Reply Quote
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
We know that Thrall had human spies (ref: Rise of the Horde), are you saying it's impossible that the Alliance had spies from at least one of the Horde races?

We know there's at least one SI:7 member who's a Goblin.


I haven't read Rise of the Horde so I don't know anything about Thrall's spies. Does it explicitly say that they're human? Because we know that he had been spying on Theramore, and the admittance of the Draenei wasn't something hard to figure out (it's not easy to miss a giant explosion over the skies of Kalimdor with a space-ship shooting out of it.)

06/25/2012 08:07 PMPosted by Thilena
We know there's at least one SI:7 member who's a Goblin.


Who hasn't done anything.

I'd put the Alliance somehow not knowing about Garrosh's intentions as pure crappy arsed story writers and lore designers with little to no military or intelligence experience. SL:7 would have to be run by blind drunken monkeys to have missed that or not have agents in the Horde.


Like it or not, those are the breaks. With the Cataclysm I doubt that spying on the Horde was a high priority for the Alliance, as SI:7 would serve much better infiltrating the Twilight's Hammer.

High elves disguised as Blood elves, or a Blood elf that is not completely following the Sin'dorie ideal and is willing to feed information. Hell, there's got to be orcs, trolls, goblins and even taurens that are willing to pass along information for various reasons from money, to a desire to stop/hinder/change the Horde as it is.


I've seen none who would be willing to straight up sell the Horde out to the Alliance, and we haven't seen any High Elves in SI:7.

06/25/2012 08:34 PMPosted by Iyotanka
High elves disguised as Blood elves, or a Blood elf that is not completely following the Sin'dorie ideal and is willing to feed information. Hell, there's got to be orcs, trolls, goblins and even taurens that are willing to pass along information for various reasons from money, to a desire to stop/hinder/change the Horde as it is.


[quote]http://www.wowhead.com/npc=38033

Or just normal spies haha


Note how easily he was outed.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warrior
10290
A) It is that inept. Were you not paying attention to how terribly SI:7 performed in Cataclysm?


Vyrin has a point here. You know how we found about Hawthorne's movements? From a dead SI:7 agent who was CARRYING THE INFORMATION ON HIS PERSON.

After that I'm perfectly willing to entertain theories of SI:7 incompetence.
Edited by Lochnar on 6/25/2012 9:04 PM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]