Reasons for war between Alliance/Horde

90 Tauren Shaman
10525
06/29/2012 06:45 PMPosted by Kyalin
should


And, what does what carts transport have to do with what zeppelins transport and how does that inform us about zeps?

We simply don't know enough and we most certainly don't know enough to consider your claims as factual or even "reasonably certain".
Edited by Iyotanka on 6/29/2012 6:57 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
should


Well of course, we're talking about the future here, there are no certainties in predictions.

That's what I've been trying to explain for the past two pages. :(

Edit: Although, I was quite proud of myself for remembering the Horde lumber ship. Now I just need to measure its dimensions in relation to a lumber cart... if only WoW had measuring tape that large...
Edited by Kyalin on 6/29/2012 6:57 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Shaman
10525
06/29/2012 06:56 PMPosted by Kyalin
That's what I've been trying to explain for the past two pages. :(


No, I get it - and I'm not saying that you're wrong. That would be dbaggy of me and hypocritical. What I've been saying is we don't have enough information to make assertions about what the orcs could and could not do. If we can't make those assertions, then it makes little sense to indict the orcs for what they could have done (but did not.)

Again, this is is why I asked you to clarify what you were arguing. One thing you were arguing we can agree on. The other we don't!

And yes, kudos on the lumber ship. Where in the world is that?
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
That's what I've been trying to explain for the past two pages. :(


No, I get it - and I'm not saying that you're wrong. That would be dbaggy of me and hypocritical. What I've been saying is we don't have enough information to make assertions about what the orcs could and could not do. If we can't make those assertions, then it makes little sense to indict the orcs for what they could have done (but did not.)

Again, this is is why I asked you to clarify what you were arguing. One thing you were arguing we can agree on. The other we don't!

And yes, kudos on the lumber ship. Where in the world is that?


Venture bay, Grizzly Hills.

As for the rest of the disagreement, I am still saying that it was possible, but for whatever reason the Horde didn't choose to do it. It may not have occurred to Garrosh, he may not have thought that it was possible, or he may have thought that it was going to be easier to invade Ashenvale. I see these as errors, because based on the factors I've listed, it's not outside the realm of possibility at all, especially given that the Horde were apparently shipping lumber from the Grizzly Hills to somewhere.

Where I think we may agree is the discussion of whether it would have worked, as opposed to whether it was possible. For that, we have to introduce our good friend, Murphy, and play with variability in all of its infinite permutations. It's impossible to say "would" when you simply haven't seen the result.
Edited by Kyalin on 6/29/2012 7:12 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Shaman
10525
06/29/2012 07:11 PMPosted by Kyalin
I am still saying that it was possible


And I'm sticking to "we don't know that it was possible" - I think you have demonstrated that it could have been plausible, though. *shrug*

At least we're on the same page now. Yay for communication.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3315
in the end though we all know the horde will crush the alliance,killing thier leader and the alliance will bow to the horde
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
07/11/2012 10:16 PMPosted by Dethnote
in the end though we all know the horde will crush the alliance,killing thier leader and the alliance will bow to the horde


Orgrimmar gets sacked in MOP.

Sorry.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
4700
alliance started the war along with the legion. if you read lore the orcs came as a peaceful people and shamanistic beleifs. humans did not like peaceful people in there land so tried to kill them all.
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90 Human Warrior
16790
alliance started the war along with the legion. if you read lore the orcs came as a peaceful people and shamanistic beleifs. humans did not like peaceful people in there land so tried to kill them all.


I don't even
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100 Tauren Hunter
10970
09/30/2012 04:04 AMPosted by Turagent
I don't even


It's a troll disguised as a Pandaren to seed arguement so they can proceed with their invasion of Pandaria unhinged.
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100 Night Elf Priest
17460
09/30/2012 03:39 AMPosted by Drunkattacks
alliance started the war along with the legion. if you read lore the orcs came as a peaceful people and shamanistic beleifs. humans did not like peaceful people in there land so tried to kill them all.


Well, the orcs always had a strange concept of peace... For all we know, an axe blow is just their currency, and they wanted to give all of it to the humans who simply didn't understand that they were being showered in gifts.
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
4480
alliance started the war along with the legion. if you read lore the orcs came as a peaceful people and shamanistic beleifs. humans did not like peaceful people in there land so tried to kill them all.


ಠ_ಠ
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100 Human Warlock
14400
Ok Varian starting this war because of the wrathgate incident is so untrue, look at the dialogue after ICC Deathbringer Surafang, Varian saw that the horde fought bravely by their soldiers heroically, mostly complimenting Dranosh for his bravery and allowed his father to reclaim his sons corpse to give his son a heroes burial.

How does that say Varian started the war?


He can still see the humanity in his enemies and still want to war with them.

To be honest your counter here is pretty weak. War is not something done just out of hate. It can be done out of necessity, or to bolster your kingdom(s) resources/power, or even to just satisfy your ego.

Varian specifically wants to go to war with the Horde, by and large, because of their culture. More reasons have been added to that since the Wrathgate incident.


Yes...he so wants to go to war with them that he agreed to PEACE after WotLK. He's such a warmongering douche.

/sarcasm

The war in Wrath was OVER, by the time Deathwing busted out. The CURRENT war lies solely with the Horde after Garrosh invaded Ashenvale in Wolfheart.
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100 Blood Elf Hunter
17120
I love how the Alliance thinks they are all sunshine and light and the Horde is all evil and dark... we could set the record straight on that.

The night elves? They played around with fel energies, messed up their own forests, mated with demons and messed up felwood. They created out of their own hubris many many portals for demons and corrupted their own lands. Most of their starting areas are them trying to straighten out their mess. Oh yeah, and Illidan Stormrage.

Humans? Oh gee, where to start. They are the main baddies of Deadmines, Scarlet Monastery, the Stockade, Stratholme, Scholomance and oh... wait! ARTHAS! They imprisoned Thrall when he was young (remember the Caverns of Time?) and basically treated orcs as slaves since they appeared on Azeroth. There is also the corruption of Onyxia... who was in ... wait... STORMWIND!

Oh... and dark iron dwarves.

And let's not forget Kil'jaeden and the countless demons that look like Draenei. They were corrupted as well.

So before we throw stones, people... just take a moment and reflect on your humble beginnings.
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100 Human Warlock
14400
I love how the Alliance thinks they are all sunshine and light and the Horde is all evil and dark... we could set the record straight on that.

The night elves? They played around with fel energies, messed up their own forests, mated with demons and messed up felwood. They created out of their own hubris many many portals for demons and corrupted their own lands. Most of their starting areas are them trying to straighten out their mess. Oh yeah, and Illidan Stormrage.

Humans? Oh gee, where to start. They are the main baddies of Deadmines, Scarlet Monastery, the Stockade, Stratholme, Scholomance and oh... wait! ARTHAS! They imprisoned Thrall when he was young (remember the Caverns of Time?) and basically treated orcs as slaves since they appeared on Azeroth. There is also the corruption of Onyxia... who was in ... wait... STORMWIND!

Oh... and dark iron dwarves.

And let's not forget Kil'jaeden and the countless demons that look like Draenei. They were corrupted as well.

So before we throw stones, people... just take a moment and reflect on your humble beginnings.


Obvious troll, but what the hell...I'm bored.

The HIGHBORNE brought the BL to Azeroth, of whom the BLOOD ELVES (your race) are descended from. Other highborne have only JUST been accepted back into the Night Elf fold. And the irony of your statement. The Night Elves have spent MILLENNIA atoning for the crimes of the Highborne whereas the orcs have been at it for barely a decade.

Really? There're evil humans? Who knew.

Arthas was corrupted by the Lich King who was, amazingly, originally an ORC.

They imprisoned the orcs? Those monster...oh wait...might have something to do with the orcs trying to wipe out the the human, dwarf, gnome and elf kingdoms when they INVADED Azeroth. I also fail to see how a black dragon messing around with humans makes them evil. Either way I guess that makes them redeemed since canonically the human king killed her.

The draenei suffered for the actions of their corrupted brethren when the orcs turned against them and made their already small population smaller. Ever notice the trend of how good the orcs are (when Thrall isn't holding their hands) at pissing people off?
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100 Human Warrior
17035
I don't even know why I'm replying and not just letting the necro die.

10/03/2012 08:43 PMPosted by Madeliñe
The night elves? They played around with fel energies, messed up their own forests, mated with demons and messed up felwood. They created out of their own hubris many many portals for demons and corrupted their own lands. Most of their starting areas are them trying to straighten out their mess.


The Highborne did, the highest caste. The ones that are now Naga and Satyr. Felwood was also a result of the war, it was not something they did personally.

Oh yeah, and Illidan Stormrage.


Illidan is a cool guy.

10/03/2012 08:43 PMPosted by Madeliñe
Oh gee, where to start. They are the main baddies of Deadmines


A group of criminals, no longer part of the alliance.

10/03/2012 08:43 PMPosted by Madeliñe
Scarlet Monastery


Demon controlled, also no longer part of the alliance.

10/03/2012 08:43 PMPosted by Madeliñe
Stratholme, Scholomance


Those are scourge.

10/03/2012 08:43 PMPosted by Madeliñe
oh... wait! ARTHAS!


I'm going to go ahead and be snarky here and say he was being manipulated by an Orc.

10/03/2012 08:43 PMPosted by Madeliñe
They imprisoned Thrall when he was young (remember the Caverns of Time?) and basically treated orcs as slaves since they appeared on Azeroth.


This was because of two wars in which the Orcs decimated and almost obliterated the Humans and their allies. It was a very taxing war that brought the Alliance to the brink of destruction. The Horde did much, much worse things to the Alliance before that time period. Also, as far as I know only Blackmoor treated them like slaves. Before that they were just treated like animals and prisoners, which isn't exactly an unlogical reaction to an alien force that nearly wiped your people out.

10/03/2012 08:43 PMPosted by Madeliñe
There is also the corruption of Onyxia... who was in ... wait... STORMWIND!


Black Dragons manipulate humans because humans are often the ones with the most political clout.

10/03/2012 08:43 PMPosted by Madeliñe
Oh... and dark iron dwarves.


They never do anything. Though we have seen them in the Alliance city in VoEB, so maybe we'll get to see them do some nefarious things on behalf of the Alliance.

And let's not forget Kil'jaeden and the countless demons that look like Draenei. They were corrupted as well.


Those are the Eredar. Draenei are basically Eredar, however Draenei that are playable, are playable because they fled the corruption of the rest of their Eredar kin.

So all in all, you named a bunch of factions that are no longer, or never were affiliated with the Alliance as it exists in its current form and tried to pin centuries old evils on them as well, evils that were never affiliated with the Alliance. I know some players like to argue from the point that Horde have still yet to pay for the previous wars they engaged in and pin the demon-fueled orcs on the current Horde, but it's not as if Horde has evil guys who actually committed the deeds being argued about - oh wait, the Horde recruited a bunch of Old Horde members - LOL NVM.

No, sorry. The Alliance is sunshine and rainbows in comparison to the Horde.
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13 Orc Monk
3110
I think we can all agree the war is a contrived and poorly executed plot device to help relieve the pressure on the "Red Vs. Blue Arena-And-RBGs-are-the-only-worthwhile-content" crowd. And it's sickening to think that Metzen and his mates are sitting somewhere right now, at this moment, probably talking about how great it is.

*headwall*
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100 Blood Elf Hunter
17120
Obvious troll, but what the hell...I'm bored.

The HIGHBORNE brought the BL to Azeroth, of whom the BLOOD ELVES (your race) are descended from. Other highborne have only JUST been accepted back into the Night Elf fold. And the irony of your statement. The Night Elves have spent MILLENNIA atoning for the crimes of the Highborne whereas the orcs have been at it for barely a decade.

Really? There're evil humans? Who knew.

Arthas was corrupted by the Lich King who was, amazingly, originally an ORC.

They imprisoned the orcs? Those monster...oh wait...might have something to do with the orcs trying to wipe out the the human, dwarf, gnome and elf kingdoms when they INVADED Azeroth. I also fail to see how a black dragon messing around with humans makes them evil. Either way I guess that makes them redeemed since canonically the human king killed her.

The draenei suffered for the actions of their corrupted brethren when the orcs turned against them and made their already small population smaller. Ever notice the trend of how good the orcs are (when Thrall isn't holding their hands) at pissing people off?


Sorry, was only addressing the sweetness and light of the goodness of the alliance. You prove my point.
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100 Human Warlock
14400
Obvious troll, but what the hell...I'm bored.

The HIGHBORNE brought the BL to Azeroth, of whom the BLOOD ELVES (your race) are descended from. Other highborne have only JUST been accepted back into the Night Elf fold. And the irony of your statement. The Night Elves have spent MILLENNIA atoning for the crimes of the Highborne whereas the orcs have been at it for barely a decade.

Really? There're evil humans? Who knew.

Arthas was corrupted by the Lich King who was, amazingly, originally an ORC.

They imprisoned the orcs? Those monster...oh wait...might have something to do with the orcs trying to wipe out the the human, dwarf, gnome and elf kingdoms when they INVADED Azeroth. I also fail to see how a black dragon messing around with humans makes them evil. Either way I guess that makes them redeemed since canonically the human king killed her.

The draenei suffered for the actions of their corrupted brethren when the orcs turned against them and made their already small population smaller. Ever notice the trend of how good the orcs are (when Thrall isn't holding their hands) at pissing people off?


Sorry, was only addressing the sweetness and light of the goodness of the alliance. You prove my point.


How?

By proving that it requires outside forces to make the Alliance act like dicks?

By proving that when Alliance races have been guilty of questionable acts they spend several thousand years atoning for said acts, while the orcs find it difficult not to play the villain when a HUMAN RAISED orc is not holding their hand?
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