Reasons for war between Alliance/Horde

91 Night Elf Druid
9065
I doubt Varian brought an entire statue with him, nor have the Horde ever set foot in Stormwind without death and destruction on their minds.


There was that one ambassador.


Think that was RPG. Which was a shame because that Orc was an epic troll.
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85 Troll Druid
2910
06/17/2012 12:08 PMPosted by Vyrin
He rightfully blamed the Horde for the actions of the Horde


It was under orders from Vam-er whatever that one dreadlords name was. He was in charge of what was going on in the Apothecarium.
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90 Orc Hunter
0
06/17/2012 07:32 PMPosted by Drailen
He's a king. He has spies. He just lost a lot of soldiers to a Forsaken-developed alchemical weapon. He knew that whatever would be in that Apothecarium would be bad.
Wasn't arguing that he didn't expect something bad. Only a fool wouldn't, although he'd have no way of knowing it was the Apothecaries nor would he know exactly what atrocities were being committed.

Heck, if we're going from lore we don't know of any spies that had informed Varian at all of the atrocities the Apothecaries were committing.

I digress though, as Elenie was kind enough to point out that Jaina had learned from Thrall about the treason and informed Varian of the whole situation, which makes this discussion a moot point / meaningless.
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85 Tauren Paladin
2075
06/17/2012 08:35 PMPosted by Ferlion
Think that was RPG. Which was a shame because that Orc was an epic troll.


Mentioning Doomhammer in that city? That man should be given a medal.
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85 Night Elf Druid
1890
Wasn't arguing that he didn't expect something bad. Only a fool wouldn't, although he'd have no way of knowing it was the Apothecaries nor would he know exactly what atrocities were being committed.


Big plague bomb.

Hint: Those guys in the warrior quarter didn't make it.

06/17/2012 09:12 PMPosted by Lazyguide
I digress though, as Elenie was kind enough to point out that Jaina had learned from Thrall about the treason and informed Varian of the whole situation, which makes this discussion a moot point / meaningless.


I know ._.

Way to go.
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100 Human Mage
9210
06/17/2012 08:59 PMPosted by Balzul
He rightfully blamed the Horde for the actions of the Horde


It was under orders from Vam-er whatever that one dreadlords name was. He was in charge of what was going on in the Apothecarium.


Still the Horde's fault. Who did Sylvanas chose as her Second in Command? A dreadlord, a demon well known for betraying anyone who isn't the Burning Legion. Did Thrall have Sylvanas kill him or get rid of so the Forsaken could join the Horde? No. He -allowed- a Dreadlord into the Horde, in a position of -AUTHORITY-!

It is entirely the Horde's fault.
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06/18/2012 06:18 AMPosted by Elenie
Still the Horde's fault. Who did Sylvanas chose as her Second in Command? A dreadlord, a demon well known for betraying anyone who isn't the Burning Legion. Did Thrall have Sylvanas kill him or get rid of so the Forsaken could join the Horde? No. He -allowed- a Dreadlord into the Horde, in a position of -AUTHORITY-!

Recall that, to everyone watching, he broke a huge taboo of his race as a loyalty test to Sylvanas. No one knew at the time that dreadlords could just reincarnate.

That said, his betrayal annoyed me. I'd consider it a more interesting story if he hadn't.
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90 Orc Warrior
10290
Thrall allowing a friggin DREADLORD into the Horde was a massive handing of the Idiot Ball and a pretty big derailment of character for him.

That being said, it's very possible Sylvanas simply hid Varimathas's existence from Thrall altogether while the Forsaken were being considered for membership.
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85 Night Elf Druid
1890
06/18/2012 07:24 AMPosted by Lochnar
That being said, it's very possible Sylvanas simply hid Varimathas's existence from Thrall altogether while the Forsaken were being considered for membership.


Not likely.

Thrall probably allowed it for the same reason he allowed Orcish warlocks back into the Horde: they were useful.

Thrall is not a lawful good type of person.
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100 Human Paladin
8700
Ok Varian starting this war because of the wrathgate incident is so untrue, look at the dialogue after ICC Deathbringer Surafang, Varian saw that the horde fought bravely by their soldiers heroically, mostly complimenting Dranosh for his bravery and allowed his father to reclaim his sons corpse to give his son a heroes burial.

How does that say Varian started the war?
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
It was under orders from Vam-er whatever that one dreadlords name was. He was in charge of what was going on in the Apothecarium.


No, he wasn't. Sylvanas was 100% in charge of the things going on in the Apothecarium. This is made clear in Vanilla questing as well as in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King.

Sylvanas ordered the plague created. Sylvanas ordered it to have specifications suited to wiping out humanity. Sylvanas is the one who DIRECTLY oversaw the experimentation and brutal torture of the prisoners in the Apothecarium. The only thing that she didn't do was deploy it at the Wrathgate, and it wasn't its deployment at the Wrathgate that caused Varian to blame the Horde, it was what he saw in the Apothecarium, and he was 100% in the right to blame the Horde for that.

It's one of the reasons why Siege of Orgrimmar is so problematic. Why would Garrosh being replaced change anything that caused him to declare war in the first place? All of that is directly tied to SYLVANAS, not the Orcs.
Edited by Vyrin on 6/18/2012 8:23 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Hunter
10930
06/17/2012 06:33 PMPosted by Elenie
Has there been any mention of Alliance members even flinching at the weapon and armor?


Does there have to be? We're talking about a weapon with the blood of countless innocent lives upon it, from both Ogrim -and- Thrall, no less. Usually bringing a weapon to a peace conference is not a good idea. Bringing one with a history of slaughter and warfare? Even less of a good idea. Its a note to Varian's strength of character that he didn't make a mention of Thrall's attire or weaponry, -let alone- the fact Thrall also brought along Varian's former slavemaster as an adviser.


If I recall correctly, it wasn't a peace conference, in fact Jaina is shocked to see that Thrall and Garoosh have even showed up. They apparently were not supposed to be there in the first place.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
06/18/2012 09:36 AMPosted by Drahliana


Does there have to be? We're talking about a weapon with the blood of countless innocent lives upon it, from both Ogrim -and- Thrall, no less. Usually bringing a weapon to a peace conference is not a good idea. Bringing one with a history of slaughter and warfare? Even less of a good idea. Its a note to Varian's strength of character that he didn't make a mention of Thrall's attire or weaponry, -let alone- the fact Thrall also brought along Varian's former slavemaster as an adviser.


If I recall correctly, it wasn't a peace conference, in fact Jaina is shocked to see that Thrall and Garoosh have even showed up. They apparently were not supposed to be there in the first place.


I'm not sure if you're thinking of the same conference.
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85 Night Elf Druid
1890
Ok Varian starting this war because of the wrathgate incident is so untrue, look at the dialogue after ICC Deathbringer Surafang, Varian saw that the horde fought bravely by their soldiers heroically, mostly complimenting Dranosh for his bravery and allowed his father to reclaim his sons corpse to give his son a heroes burial.

How does that say Varian started the war?


He can still see the humanity in his enemies and still want to war with them.

To be honest your counter here is pretty weak. War is not something done just out of hate. It can be done out of necessity, or to bolster your kingdom(s) resources/power, or even to just satisfy your ego.

Varian specifically wants to go to war with the Horde, by and large, because of their culture. More reasons have been added to that since the Wrathgate incident.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
Varian specifically wants to go to war with the Horde, by and large, because of their culture. More reasons have been added to that since the Wrathgate incident.


On what basis do believe that Varian is going to war strictly over cultural issues? What makes you believe this?
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86 Undead Death Knight
3690
06/18/2012 08:21 AMPosted by Vyrin
It's one of the reasons why Siege of Orgrimmar is so problematic. Why would Garrosh being replaced change anything that caused him to declare war in the first place? All of that is directly tied to SYLVANAS, not the Orcs.


Well we have no lead up to the Siege. We only know point A which is the start of MoP, and point Z, which is the Siege. We dont know the important points of B-Y. Clearly Garrosh does something that causes both sides recognize him as a threat to the world rather than just one faction or the other.
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100 Undead Priest
24740
Does there have to be? We're talking about a weapon with the blood of countless innocent lives upon it, from both Ogrim -and- Thrall, no less. Usually bringing a weapon to a peace conference is not a good idea. Bringing one with a history of slaughter and warfare? Even less of a good idea. Its a note to Varian's strength of character that he didn't make a mention of Thrall's attire or weaponry, -let alone- the fact Thrall also brought along Varian's former slavemaster as an adviser.


I guess. Though, should we assume that the Horde doesn't take too kindly to that giant statue of Daelin as well?


No. Doomhammer pretty solidly occupies the villain sphere. Well, maybe the anti-villain sphere. Daelin was one of the Alliance's big heroes during the second war, and then did what any rational Alliance leader would have done upon seeing Doomhammer's personally chosen successor re-forging the Horde with a capital on Azeroth. Ultimately, Doomhammer is a reminder of the Horde's dark past without the leader being under demon blood as a scapegoat. Daelin's a reminder of a past Alliance hero, with a daughter who was smitten by the fact that some orcs teamed with her to fight a force that wanted to destroy them both (so, an event where the orcs' actions are still motivated by self-interest in preservation and not really something that should govern how they ought to be dealt with otherwise).

Right now, the Alliance simply doesn't have an equivalent to Orgrim Doomhammer. I don't think the writers intended any symbolism to be seen by Alliance characters (the writers aren't subtle with things like that - if they had wanted it to be noticed, you'd see explicit character thoughts written about it or out-loud commentary). But the more sophisticated people want to view the characters, the harder it is to escape things like that. I would expect the Alliance to not change their approach to anything like a peace conference. The Horde culture you see is constantly filled with the notion that the Alliance is weak and inferior. That was true even in Vanilla. The Alliance would want to show up with symbols that rebutted that and reminded the orcs that peace would be preferable to a fierce enemy, as the Alliance had shown it could be. They would want symbols to help the leader of the orcs remind his people WHY he wants peace. You never, ever get the feeling playing in the Horde that the orcs would see symbols like that and react as if the Alliance was doing something improper. You get the sense that the orcs would grudgingly respect that decision.

The Horde would want to show up with as little symbolism as possible, because the Alliance already knows the orcs can be fierce and deadly. What they don't know is whether the orcs can be trusted. I'm not sure the Horde has many or any orcish symbols that help their case. But, like I said, I don't think the writers ever considered this stuff. It doesn't really matter anyway, though, aside from making Thrall look a bit less competent and Varian look more abiding. The game could never let a peace conference be successful.
Edited by Torvald on 6/18/2012 12:24 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Druid
1890
06/18/2012 11:21 AMPosted by Kyalin
On what basis do believe that Varian is going to war strictly over cultural issues? What makes you believe this?


I paid attention to his dialogue in the Battle for the Undercity.



King Varian Wrynn yells: Soon we march upon this cursed place and cleanse it of its evil taint!



King Varian Wrynn says: Our descent into the depths of depravity begins! Be on guard! Jaina, lend us your strength!


King Varian Wrynn says: What say you now, Putress?
King Varian Wrynn says: Look around you, brothers and sisters. Open your eyes! Look at what they have done to our kingdom!
King Varian Wrynn says: How much longer will we allow these savages free reign in our world?
King Varian Wrynn says: I have seen the Horde's world. I have been inside their cities. Inside their minds...
King Varian Wrynn says: I know what evil lies in the hearts of orcs.


King Varian Wrynn says: You should all know, the orcs have a battle cry: LOK'TAR OGAR! It means "victory or death." Fitting...


King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
King Varian Wrynn says: ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!


Varian already hated the Orcs because of the first and second wars. Then he saw what they were like in the "New Horde" first-hand and his opinion didn't improve.

As of that particular time in the story, he wanted to disband the Horde. That means winning a war, which is why after Dragonblight's questing both factions are duking it out in Grizzly Hills and Icecrown.

By the time we get to the end of MoP, Varian's attitude is supposed to be different: He'll just want to get rid of Garrosh.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
On what basis do believe that Varian is going to war strictly over cultural issues? What makes you believe this?


I paid attention to his dialogue in the Battle for the Undercity.



King Varian Wrynn yells: Soon we march upon this cursed place and cleanse it of its evil taint!



King Varian Wrynn says: Our descent into the depths of depravity begins! Be on guard! Jaina, lend us your strength!


King Varian Wrynn says: What say you now, Putress?
King Varian Wrynn says: Look around you, brothers and sisters. Open your eyes! Look at what they have done to our kingdom!
King Varian Wrynn says: How much longer will we allow these savages free reign in our world?
King Varian Wrynn says: I have seen the Horde's world. I have been inside their cities. Inside their minds...
King Varian Wrynn says: I know what evil lies in the hearts of orcs.


King Varian Wrynn says: You should all know, the orcs have a battle cry: LOK'TAR OGAR! It means "victory or death." Fitting...


King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
King Varian Wrynn says: ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!


Varian already hated the Orcs because of the first and second wars. Then he saw what they were like in the "New Horde" first-hand and his opinion didn't improve.

As of that particular time in the story, he wanted to disband the Horde. That means winning a war, which is why after Dragonblight's questing both factions are duking it out in Grizzly Hills and Icecrown.

By the time we get to the end of MoP, Varian's attitude is supposed to be different: He'll just want to get rid of Garrosh.


The issue with this argument is that it completely omits the lead-up from the comics. One example of how glaring this issue is, is the Theramore peace conference.

Let's also not pretend that Varian's comments in the undercity were entirely unwarranted. The entire conflict in Ashenvale went on because Thrall has a tendency to turn the other cheek when the Horde is acting in a way that benefits them, but harms the Alliance. Allowing the forsaken to develop the plague very much follows that trend, at least from outside observation.

So again, I'm not really seeing where your initial argument of culture, as opposed to legitimate grievances in action and policy, comes in.
Edited by Kyalin on 6/18/2012 1:04 PM PDT
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
Which all boils down to the Orcs culture of "If I need it, I take it, and if someone says its wrong, I kill them"
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