World of Warcraft®

06/18/2012 01:08 PMPosted by Ferlion

Which all boils down to the Orcs culture of "If I need it, I take it, and if someone says its wrong, I kill them"

So long as we're in agreement that Varian's concerns aren't completely arbitrary, you could put it that way, sure.

Reasons for war between Alliance/Horde

Metzen.

06/18/2012 01:16 PMPosted by Kyalin

Which all boils down to the Orcs culture of "If I need it, I take it, and if someone says its wrong, I kill them"

So long as we're in agreement that Varian's concerns aren't completely arbitrary, you could put it that way, sure.

He didn't say they were arbitrary. Just that they were a cultural thing. And they are. Varian doesn't want Orcs dead. He recognizes they are sentient beings. He won't tolerate them in the Horde though, because the Horde carries with it cultural trappings that make them difficult to live with, and near impossible to live with for peace.

06/18/2012 01:02 PMPosted by Kyalin

The issue with this argument is that it completely omits the lead-up from the comics. One example of how glaring this issue is, is the Theramore peace conference.

I honestly don't see how. The comics started with Varian not remembering anything(which is a lame cliche, but hey). He was shown a world of slavery, Orcish bullies, Undead pulling swords out of their chests to be intimidating, etc.

I didn't read the third volume of the comics, but I read the gist of how that Theramore conference went down. When that incident took place Varian had a different mind set. Don't forget, he is a person who puts responsibility first. When he started to regain his memory, his first priority was to find his son and help his friends....not win glory.

But what really triggered his desire for an actual war was Bolvar's death. Don't underestimate it: it was the Catalyst for this war. Bolvar was basically the "leader" of the Alliance in vanilla. To players, he was essentially Varian's predecessor.

Reasons for war between the Lannisters and Starks

Martin

See what I did thar?

06/18/2012 06:30 PMPosted by Drailen

But what really triggered his desire for an actual war was Bolvar's death. Don't underestimate it: it was the Catalyst for this war. Bolvar was basically the "leader" of the Alliance in vanilla. To players, he was essentially Varian's predecessor

Couldn't agree more.

There isn't much to add to what the OP asked except perhaps this.

Fundamentally the Horde and the Alliance are two completely different organizations with different goals and interests. Because of the catacylsm the interests of both factions have been threatened and both have been forced to reevaluate their goals. Now that Deathwing is gone there are not any immediate threats of consequence to the Alliance and the Horde aside from each other.

Considering that combined with the history of both factions and the various grievenences they have with each other (regardless of whether one side is more justified than the other) it was only a matter of time before they fought each other again.

Reasons for war between the Lannisters and Starks

Martin

See what I did thar?

i thouight they were at war because some one gave Robert fortified wine on a hunting trip, then Ned continued to be bad at politics.

i thouight they were at war because some one gave Robert fortified wine on a hunting trip, then Ned continued to be bad at politics.

(Game of Thrones spoilers)If you read the book Ned is actually pretty smart, because since it's from his perspective you see his thought process. It wasn't just about honor. He was actually making calculations to save his daughters and prepare for war. His only actual flaw was underestimating those around him to counter his plans. Cersei ripped his declaration in front of him, Littlefinger betrayed with the Gold Cloaks(and I don't recall Littlefinger being nearly as obvious that he was going to betray in the book--though he did make that one comment early on that Ned shouldn't trust him), and Sansa foiled his plans by revealing crucial information to Cersei. It also created a situation where he couldn't get his daughters to the ship he hired out to take them home.

i read all the books, and agree with you for the most part. i guess i shouldnt say "bad", more like less good than everyone else in power. Ned was just not built for the environment he was thrown into.

Littlefinger is one of my favorite characters in the series, i dont think the show is doing him justice.... same for several other characters who are underplayed or just dont exist in the show.

They started it.

War over resources for the Horde not to mention Garrosh fueling the hatred between Alliance and Horde (he was born and raised on Draenor so his extreme prejudice isn't very well founded. If anything he hides his low self esteem with ruthless actions and meglomania)

The Horde is further incensed with the Alliance encroaching upon their lands.

War over resources for the Horde not to mention Garrosh fueling the hatred between Alliance and Horde (he was born and raised on Draenor so his extreme prejudice isn't very well founded. If anything he hides his low self esteem with ruthless actions and meglomania)

The Horde is further incensed with the Alliance encroaching upon their lands.

Think of it like this:

Garrosh lived ashamed in Nagrand because of what his father and his people did by succumbing to the bloodlust and consuming fel blood. He put himself down for it, to the point where as soon as an emotional disruption(the weakening of the Greatmother) occurred he was near-suicidal.

Thrall then came along and showed him how his father was a hero and the Horde was born anew.

Then Garrosh goes to Orgrimmar and the first thing he saw was how his people lost their pride in their attempts to atone for their past....they were like he was.

So he did a 180 from Nagrand and decided to be as proud as he could be. And as the rightful heir to the mantle of Chieftan of the Warsong, he was a leader: he decided he would restore the pride to his clan.

Which is why Thrall ultimately made Garrosh the Warchief....to restore pride to his people.

So Garrosh doesn't hate the humans for being humans. He hates the Alliance because to him they're like bullies: trying to put his people down and make them feel guilty for what they did in the past, robbing them of their pride and accomplishments.

Which is funny, because from the Alliance perspective Garrosh himself has become a bully even though Garrosh wouldn't see it that way. Such is the nature of conflict.

06/19/2012 07:22 AMPosted by Aoife

The Horde is further incensed with the Alliance encroaching upon their lands.

I know there's Southern Barrens, but that's entirely to try to help the night elves stop the Horde from encroaching on their lands. And. Uh.

I got nothing else.

06/19/2012 03:15 PMPosted by Thorm

The Horde is further incensed with the Alliance encroaching upon their lands.

I know there's Southern Barrens, but that's entirely to try to help the night elves stop the Horde from encroaching on their lands. And. Uh.

I got nothing else.

To the Horde, all of Azeroth and beyond is "their lands."

06/19/2012 03:18 PMPosted by Vyrin

I know there's Southern Barrens, but that's entirely to try to help the night elves stop the Horde from encroaching on their lands. And. Uh.

I got nothing else.

To the Horde, all of Azeroth and beyond is "their lands."

"All land is troll land"

War over resources for the Horde not to mention Garrosh fueling the hatred between Alliance and Horde (he was born and raised on Draenor so his extreme prejudice isn't very well founded. If anything he hides his low self esteem with ruthless actions and meglomania)

The Horde is further incensed with the Alliance encroaching upon their lands.

Think of it like this:

Garrosh lived ashamed in Nagrand because of what his father and his people did by succumbing to the bloodlust and consuming fel blood. He put himself down for it, to the point where as soon as an emotional disruption(the weakening of the Greatmother) occurred he was near-suicidal.

Thrall then came along and showed him how his father was a hero and the Horde was born anew.

Then Garrosh goes to Orgrimmar and the first thing he saw was how his people lost their pride in their attempts to atone for their past....they were like he was.

So he did a 180 from Nagrand and decided to be as proud as he could be. And as the rightful heir to the mantle of Chieftan of the Warsong, he was a leader: he decided he would restore the pride to his clan.

Which is why Thrall ultimately made Garrosh the Warchief....to restore pride to his people.

So Garrosh doesn't hate the humans for being humans. He hates the Alliance because to him they're like bullies: trying to put his people down and make them feel guilty for what they did in the past, robbing them of their pride and accomplishments.

Which is funny, because from the Alliance perspective Garrosh himself has become a bully even though Garrosh wouldn't see it that way. Such is the nature of conflict.

That was... an incredibly smart post and a good read. I actually understand Garrosh's character more than I did before. Thank you for showing me that the story forum can still be educational and not just a faction bias fight.

Then Garrosh goes to Orgrimmar and the first thing he saw was how his people lost their pride in their attempts to atone for their past....they were like he was.

That is BULL!@#$.

Then Garrosh goes to Orgrimmar and the first thing he saw was how his people lost their pride in their attempts to atone for their past....they were like he was.

That is BULL!@#$.

That's pretty much his POV in his short story. Daelin's army was hitting Razor Hill, their land was crap for growing food other than swine, their fishing hole was small.

06/19/2012 03:18 PMPosted by Vyrin

To the Horde, all of Azeroth and beyond is "their lands."

Azeroth belongs to the Forsaken. Always and forever.

06/19/2012 03:35 PMPosted by Beschutzer

That was... an incredibly smart post and a good read. I actually understand Garrosh's character more than I did before. Thank you for showing me that the story forum can still be educational and not just a faction bias fight.

Thank you, Sir Perky Ears.

That is BULL!@#$.

Do the Nagrand quests Horde-side.

Read Garrosh's short story.

Then you'll understand.

I've never liked Garrosh's character either, and his writing is wishy-washy, but there is a line through it that shows his story arc and why it has went the way it has. Blizzard just never explained it very cohesively.

06/19/2012 06:49 PMPosted by Noitora

Azeroth belongs to the Forsaken. Always and forever.

Race traitor!