Is arena harder than raiding? (lf input)

90 Human Rogue
7830


Lose to someone? Queue dodge! Competition? Win trade! Not good at the game? Buy your title. The only "skill" related part of arena comes from the tier of players that none of you will ever reach. Sorry for my bluntness.


You can buy good raid gear, too.

And no, select any 3 players in this thread and give them RLS and I pretty much promise you they won't get 2500.

A FoTm can definitely get you higher than you should, maybe, but it won't turn a 1800 player into a 2500 player.
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06/29/2012 11:47 AMPosted by Rimlol
You can buy good raid gear, too.

Yeah, that wasn't my point. PvE is a cakewalk, too.

And no, select any 3 players in this thread and give them RLS and I pretty much promise you they won't get 2500.

A FoTm can definitely get you higher than you should, maybe, but it won't turn a 1800 player into a 2500 player.

It will get you 2200, which is what I was referring to when I said "The only 'skill' related part of arena comes from the tier of players that none of you will ever reach."

I should have added "good communication and teamwork" to my list. I will give you that. But cavemen had good communication and teammwork. I'm just not impressed with top rated players anymore, because most of them are terrible people and are just piggy-backing the system.

I should also add I'm not trying to be an !@#$%^-. I'm just expressing my cynicism when it comes to people that play this game anymore.
Edited by Adva on 6/29/2012 4:13 PM PDT
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90 Orc Warlock
15265
If you listen to chat in most high progression 25 man guilds and compare it to the chat of a measly 3man high ranked team, you'll notice that the 3man team's chat is usually more cluttered during the encounters...which is somewhat staggering considering there are 22 less ppl in that chat.


Well Eb already answered this but I'll add a bit. You must see that because of the flat difference between the two, your comparison doesn't really hold ground. PVP is dynamic, PVE is not. Plus most guilds have...raid leaders. They call things.

Another good way to see which is more difficult is just to look upon history. A long time ago on Tich a group of the best PvP'ers NA side made a guild "PvE is Hard" to put the highest raid instance at the time on farm since some of the best gear to be had you needed to PvE for. Anndd...they did it..easily. Took them maybe 2 weeks to get it cleared and on farm. You could say that they are just really good players...and they were...most of them were pros or soon to be sponsored. But if you turn around and ask the same of PvE players...to make a 2 week turnaround into having the highest skill set required to compete in high rated arenas...it wouldn't equate.


I know this guild existed because I can find them on wowprogress. However, I can't go back far enough to see what their progression actually was. All I know is they seemed to have disbanded in 3.0

Either way, as Rim said earlier, a skilled player is a skilled player. Not that I am disputing the point to this paragraph, because I do agree with it overall, however, there are PVE players who have some accomplishments in PVP.

See here: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/Sparkuggz/simple

He raids with Method, who are one of the top raiding guilds in the world and have been for some time. Notice he also has Wrathful Gladiator; which if I am not mistaken (I'm not) wouldn't be an easy PVP feat to achieve.

Basically, my point is - it works both ways. You will have PVE'ers who can't PVP well. You will have PVPers who aren't good raiders.

However, I do agree with part of your main point. Your average raider (who doesn't PVP) will probably not be a great PVP'er, while an average pvp'er will probably be an okay raider (flakiness aside). I do think the line blurs a little more as your move towards the top of the raiding ladder though.

Coordination: You have never done high lvl arena if you think that PvE encounters have a comparable amount of in-game coordination to arenas. Raiding takes more coordination to put together but not nearly as much coordination to do. You can see this increasingly as expansion packs have come out and guilds and players have started being able to pug the highest lvl raid instances....which never happened before Wrath.


The coordination pains of raiding aren't doing the raid (at least for the average guild). As has (or I would hope) been pointed out; it isn't hard to get people to understand and follow a scripted fight.

Coordinating 10 people to think on the same level and play on the same level is not at all the same as doing it for 3 people. The more people there are, the more mistakes are bound to happen, regardless of scripts or dynamics.


Lose to someone? Queue dodge! Competition? Win trade! Not good at the game? Buy your title. The only "skill" related part of arena comes from the tier of players that none of you will ever reach. Sorry for my bluntness.


Similar things happens in top end raiding (which I know you know). 95% of the guilds who killed H-Hagara in the first 3-4 weeks all exploited (not that she is hard to begin with). Blizzard also likes to release buggy content and expect people not to use them to their advantage (Dark Sim on Sinestra?)
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90 Undead Priest
4815
Well Eb already answered this but I'll add a bit. You must see that because of the flat difference between the two, your comparison doesn't really hold ground. PVP is dynamic, PVE is not. Plus most guilds have...raid leaders. They call things.

...

I know this guild existed because I can find them on wowprogress. However, I can't go back far enough to see what their progression actually was. All I know is they seemed to have disbanded in 3.0

However, I do agree with part of your main point. Your average raider (who doesn't PVP) will probably not be a great PVP'er, while an average pvp'er will probably be an okay raider (flakiness aside). I do think the line blurs a little more as your move towards the top of the raiding ladder though.

...

The coordination pains of raiding aren't doing the raid (at least for the average guild). As has (or I would hope) been pointed out; it isn't hard to get people to understand and follow a scripted fight.

Coordinating 10 people to think on the same level and play on the same level is not at all the same as doing it for 3 people. The more people there are, the more mistakes are bound to happen, regardless of scripts or dynamics.

Similar things happens in top end raiding (which I know you know). 95% of the guilds who killed H-Hagara in the first 3-4 weeks all exploited (not that she is hard to begin with). Blizzard also likes to release buggy content and expect people not to use them to their advantage (Dark Sim on Sinestra?)


My point was to illustrate that one side is forced to communicate much more than the other. In a typical raid you have a raid leader call out boss abilities or add, or you have ppl rotating something that call out switches...but it is generally not so cluttered in chat. On the other hand, everything is important in pvp, ppl call out enemy cooldowns, their cooldowns, they have to coordinate burst, say when they are CC'd, say when they are CC'ing, say when they are kiting, say when almost anything happens...on the other hand you can't have every mage calling out to the raid everytime he's about to burn a cooldown for more PvE burst.

...

The guild broke up b/c a lot of ppl quit playing or moved servers towards the end of BC. The battlegroup got too competitive (since everybody who PvP's moved there S2) and ppl wanted titles...I remember seeing a team that were middle of the pack gladiators move to Emerald Dream (weakest BG at the time) and pick up rank 1 lol. I've never seen a dedicated PvP'er not be able to step into any raid and do well to great given a couple times of running the encounter...I've rarely seen a dedicated PvE'er do the same in PvP...but it does happen.

...

You don't have to get 10 ppl to think the same way in a raid, you get ppl to do their jobs and not die...you DO have to get 3 ppl to synergize in an arena setting however...there is a very large difference here. It's like comparing employees at a corporation to a high end sports team. They both may be talented, but replacing an employee at a corporations can often times be seemless given they have similar skill sets, replacing a member of a team can spell disaster and take months to rebuild the synergy.

I haven't played much in Cata, but a large amount of world firsts on major bosses have been done by the use of 'exploits'. From Rag to the Lich King ppl figure out a way to make things work...and in the worst case scenario blizzard bans them.

...

On a final note, I'm tending to refer to the higher ends of both PvP and PvE here rather than the middle ground between casuals and hardcores...I'd say in this 'grey area' there isn't anything really difficult for either party. I will like to say that the guilds who are at the highest end of progression (competing for world firsts) get my respect for being as skillful, knowledgeable, and intelligent as the higher end PvPers since those are the guys finding out the abilities of the bosses (before Blizz gave them to you...I couldn't imagine insta dying and searching through the combat log to try and piece together timers for something)...as well as solid strategies to deal with those abilities.
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90 Gnome Priest
18065
06/29/2012 08:49 AMPosted by Tahlasar
I always find myself in PvP asking "How can i get better, what can i do differently to beat X player 1v1, How can i make my Cyclones more effective and well placed?" while in PvE it's more of a "Okay pay attention stop chasing mobs that are charging and remember to stack on swilries"


Haha. You're like the perfect example for an article I read a while back (I wish I could find it again). The author, a high-end raid leader, was comparing what it's like to have PvErs and PvPrs in his raids and said that PvPrs tend to lose interest faster, but they are also more capable of adjusting to an unexpected situation (if a tank goes down and !@#$ hits the fan, for example). This is probably why you're on a half of our progression kills. :)

I think PvErs' version of "how can I get better?" might be "how can I tighten my rotation?" because I constantly notice some players pulling anywhere between 40k and 50k on the same fight, all depending on how focused they are. Kinda crazy how alt-tabbing mid-fight costs you 20% of performance.

06/29/2012 01:51 AMPosted by Goodguysky
It is hard to compare this to guild progression since it varies so much player to player.


^^^ vvv

06/26/2012 10:22 PMPosted by Cayreth
I think it's hard to directly compare arenas with raiding because they are such different beasts.
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90 Human Rogue
7830
I feel like this is a good place to put it.

2500 current rating 3v3 rogue, 2700+ RMP, RLS, RDKP etc exp rogue LF pve orientated guild.

My gear is like 385 IL, But, I've done cutting-edge raiding before.. in like ulduar and stuff. Yeah.

also@Adva, When you say "None of you" ...
Edited by Rimlol on 7/1/2012 3:03 PM PDT
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07/01/2012 01:43 PMPosted by Rimlol
also@Adva, When you say "None of you" ...

I haven't seen you at MLG, or on any of the professional streams.
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90 Human Rogue
7830
also@Adva, When you say "None of you" ...

I haven't seen you at MLG, or on any of the professional streams.


So now the requirement for the game to start having/requiring "skill" is to go to a LAN or play in a tournament?

So, if you are top 0.05% game no skill

If you are in top 0.02/0.01% game skill?
Edited by Rimlol on 7/1/2012 5:54 PM PDT
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Yep. Anything else and it's moot.
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90 Human Rogue
7830
Haha, So you are able to tell the difference between a rogue at 2500 rating and a rogue at 2580 rating?

K.

lol.
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90 Undead Priest
4815
07/01/2012 05:51 PMPosted by Rimlol

I haven't seen you at MLG, or on any of the professional streams.


So now the requirement for the game to start having/requiring "skill" is to go to a LAN or play in a tournament?

So, if you are top 0.05% game no skill

If you are in top 0.02/0.01% game skill?


Not necessarily agreeing with Adva, but I will say that being competitive (travelling to LANs and being sponsored to play) is really on a very different lvl from most avg players, regardless of their ratings.

Adva sounds like a troll though, I wouldn't feed her too much.
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07/01/2012 07:18 PMPosted by Goodguysky
Adva sounds like a troll though, I wouldn't feed her too much.

No, just blunt.
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90 Goblin Warlock
13515
bads are bad at things they are bad at because they are bad, and difficulty is irrelevant since the game hasn't been difficult for years.
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90 Gnome Priest
18065
07/01/2012 01:43 PMPosted by Rimlol
2500 current rating 3v3 rogue, 2700+ RMP, RLS, RDKP etc exp rogue LF pve orientated guild.


What happened to Victoria Vel Nex?
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90 Human Paladin
12990
07/02/2012 10:06 AMPosted by Cayreth
2500 current rating 3v3 rogue, 2700+ RMP, RLS, RDKP etc exp rogue LF pve orientated guild.


What happened to Victoria Vel Nex?


Had no raid slots open for rogues atm is all. Nothing serious.
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90 Undead Priest
4815
It's odd that somebody would advertise their PvP achievements while looking for a PvE oriented guild.
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To be honest, I'd much rather invite an experienced PvPer, as long as they're not there to troll the raid. There is a lower chance they'd be carried.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
11210
07/02/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Adva
To be honest, I'd much rather invite an experienced PvPer, as long as they're not there to troll the raid. There is a lower chance they'd be carried.


All those credentials mean to me is that they may have enough main stats on their PvP gear to compensate for having little-to-no hit rating (assuming DPS). After that, it will be a coin toss. They will most likely screw up the fight mechanics and get themselves killed (often), and that's assuming they don't kill the raid. But that is a learning curve everyone has to go through. From there, they may or may not be able to juggle multiple tasks, or notice they're standing in something -- especially if our healers are on our game and it's only our mana pools that are screaming in agony. Again, that's stuff that you learn as you go. Bottom line is that an experienced PvPer will still be a novice raider until he or she has done the fights.

Really what will set them apart as a raider is attitude -- do they have the patience to weather the wipes as a team learns an encounter? Are they interested in progressing the team over themselves? PvPers can be rock stars and glory hounds, and there's not a lot of room for being high-strung in progression raiding. Raiders will often take more mellow folks who are maybe only moderately good because they don't stress a raid leader out very often.
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Oh, don't get me wrong. Before they'd get a regular spot I'd require them to have full PvE gear. PvP gear can be used as filler, but if they're legitimately interested in raiding they'd understand that it is indeed filler.

But it is proven that PvPers are better at multitasking than the average pure-PvE player. PvP is just more demanding. It's a fact of the game. Even if they stand in fire, the learning curve is less steep. The game is easy in all aspects, but I've learned over my many years that most of the player base is under the delusion it is not.

But you are right, attitude is everything. I kind of inferred that in my comment about requiring them to not be trolls, but I could have clarified that better. There are just as many PvE players that are full of themselves and are horrible. At least with a PvP player I get the lesser of two evils.
Edited by Adva on 7/2/2012 5:36 PM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
7830
I'm delusional enough to think I'm guna get a group on this server that will never wipe, or that I can raid without PvE gear. I have raid finder/firelands level gear just for the record.

And yeah, PvP gear is only better than PvE gear 3 tiers below just because the resil is a complete wasted stat.

I'd bet money that I won't mess up any raid mechanic more than once.
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