Question for Alliance Players(Mop Spoilers)

55 Draenei Death Knight
470
Horde players need not apply. So Alliance, we all know that the the raid to Orgrimmar is coming. The question I have to ask is this...

What the HELL would make you want to help the Horde take back their city when we can just sit back and watch them tear each other apart? What would make you as an Alliance player feel justified in helping your enemies take back their capital city and then just quietly pack up and go home?
Edited by Crappytank on 6/28/2012 10:59 PM PDT
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100 Worgen Warrior
17160
The immediate withdrawal of all Horde troops from Ashenvale, Gilneas, and all other occupied Alliance lands; the destruction of all Forsaken plagues and the cessation of their development; custody of Sylvanas Windrunner, her Val'kyr and all members of the RAS to be turned over to the Alliance as war criminals; and the new Warchief's word that the Forsaken will be expelled from the Horde should any of them continue her work.

But we'll end up doing it for free, just because we're nice guys and the Orcs are just innocent victims who need our help.
Edited by Arberus on 6/29/2012 12:01 AM PDT
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
The complete withdrawal of any Horde or Forsaken presence in the Eastern Kingdoms.
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
No horde players need not apply.

Double negative, so I'll chime in.

Not to rain on your pity parade, but we really have no idea of the circumstances leading up to and including the Siege of Orgrimmar, so to assume that things are going to go in any particular direction and then complain about it when it hasn't happened yet and might never is a bit ludicrous.

It's entirely possible that not only the actions of Garrosh put him at odds with the rest of the Horde, but they also present a threat which the Alliance cannot ignore. Anything from dark shaman, to terra cotta armies, to mogu soul forging or sha control might make Garrosh and his followers to pressing a threat that sitting back to let the Horde fight itself would spell destruction for the Alliance.

Further, as we've seen with the Deathwing fights, it's entirely possible for fights to start in one location and end in another: Perhaps Garrosh boards an airship with a city-cracking bomb headed straight for Stormwind, and the Alliance must prevent it from dropping its payload, ending up nowhere near the city by the end.

Don't assume without any sort of evidence that things will happen in a particular way.
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Withdrawal of all Horde from Dustwallow Marsh, Ashenvale, Gilneas, Hillsbarad, and South Silverpine. Surrender of Sylvanas Windrunner and all Apothecaries of the RAS to be tried by an Alliance tribunal for Warcrimes.

And that's just to start.
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100 Worgen Warrior
17160
06/28/2012 11:13 PMPosted by Kellick
No horde players need not apply.

Double negative, so I'll chime in.

Not to rain on your pity parade, but we really have no idea of the circumstances leading up to and including the Siege of Orgrimmar, so to assume that things are going to go in any particular direction and then complain about it when it hasn't happened yet and might never is a bit ludicrous.

It's entirely possible that not only the actions of Garrosh put him at odds with the rest of the Horde, but they also present a threat which the Alliance cannot ignore. Anything from dark shaman, to terra cotta armies, to mogu soul forging or sha control might make Garrosh and his followers to pressing a threat that sitting back to let the Horde fight itself would spell destruction for the Alliance.

Further, as we've seen with the Deathwing fights, it's entirely possible for fights to start in one location and end in another: Perhaps Garrosh boards an airship with a city-cracking bomb headed straight for Stormwind, and the Alliance must prevent it from dropping its payload, ending up nowhere near the city by the end.

Don't assume without any sort of evidence that things will happen in a particular way.

We can assume they're going to happen a particular way when there's no other way for them to happen.

Maybe Garrosh becomes some universal threat to the world that the Alliance decides they have to stop. Maybe he's only a threat to the Horde and we just decide to help out because we've somehow forgotten the past few years. Either way, the end result is the same: An Alliance army, sitting in the middle of the Horde's main capital, that gameplay says has to leave but lore says has little reason to do so.
Edited by Arberus on 6/29/2012 12:02 AM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
10290
Wow....I haven't seen this much wangsting in a LONG !@#$ing time.

If Blizz gave me the chance to go to Stormwind and canonically wipe my %^- with it, I wouldn't ask for a damn thing. That in itself is MORE than sufficient.
Edited by Lochnar on 6/29/2012 12:08 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Shaman
14190
We can assume they're going to happen a particular way when there's no other way for them to happen.

Maybe Garrosh becomes some universal threat to the world that the Alliance decides they have to stop. Maybe he's only a threat to the Horde and we just decide to help out because we've somehow forgotten the past few years. Either way, the end result is the same: An Alliance army, sitting in the middle of the Horde's main capital, that gameplay says has to leave but lore says has little reason to do so.


This is the fundimental issue when all is said and done. Of course, the could completely suprise us and have the next expac start with Org under Alliance occupation but that would hardly lessen the conflict between the two forces, just turn it into an insergancy instead. Im seriously cant see how Blizz can write themselves out of this plot hole.

06/28/2012 11:18 PMPosted by Jaelara
Surrender of Sylvanas Windrunner and all Apothecaries of the RAS to be tried by an Alliance tribunal for Warcrimes


Wouldnt this be sort of pointless? The end result will almost certainly be exicution anyway. The tribunal would be little more than show in the long run, particularly since large amounts of information on many of the Apothecaries would be very hard to discover even if you hled the Undercity. What would the Alliance do with the ones they had a lack of evidence to prosicute against, particularly if the suspected something but lacked evidence? Release them again back to the Horde?

Either way there are reasons that would force the Allaince to get involved. The question is why the Allaince would just leave afterward once they had the Horde by the balls.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
If Blizz gave me the chance to go to Stormwind and canonically wipe my %^- with it, I wouldn't ask for a damn thing. That in itself is MORE than sufficient.


How do you know that's going to happen? It's possible that the Alliance will take on a heavily subordinate role because Blizzard considers it "a Horde fight."
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88 Night Elf Priest
12110
Wow....I haven't seen this much wangsting in a LONG !@#$ing time.

If Blizz gave me the chance to go to Stormwind and canonically wipe my %^- with it, I wouldn't ask for a damn thing. That in itself is MORE than sufficient.


A question for you if there was a raid that would be the same thing only with alliance needing horde help and that the horde army under garrosh arrives and helps them reclaim their city and just leaves or is routed immediately afterwords. that would be quite odd indeed to have them leave like that.

I would love to get a chance to raid Orgrimmar in a raid, but it is the execution of how it is done thats the problem. I cannot see the alliance to go from death to the horde to Let's help those innocent orcs in one event. To do this you need this war to go on a lot longer, and provide us a subtle but noticable change in politics.

tldr: If the tables are turned why would you help us reclaim a city, and why would your horde just get up and leave after that despite all what has happened
Edited by Eillas on 6/29/2012 1:32 AM PDT
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85 Human Paladin
6185
06/28/2012 10:48 PMPosted by Crappytank
What would make you as an Alliance player feel justified in helping your enemies take back their capital city and then just quietly pack up and go home?


That they apologize for their stupidity after the last 3 (4?) wars, accept their mistakes, pay war reparations, return our terrotories in Ashenvale and/or Arathi.

Not that I expect any of that to happend mind you (or to feel justified at all in helpign the Horde clean thier own backyard if thats the case)
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100 Dwarf Paladin
13395
Aside from the fact that Garrosh may become a threat to Azeroth as a whole, we also have to consider things beyond the scope of MoP.

The Burning Legion is going to be launching another major invasion. It's not really a question of if anymore, it's a question of when. If Varian Wrynn knows this, he'll jump at an opportunity to help put a more amicable Warchief in charge of the Horde. Fighting the Horde until they are obliterated might appeal to people who want vengeance for this or that, but the only thing it will accomplish in the long run is doom all of Azeroth when the Legion comes.

As for territorial concessions, those can be left for a formal peace treaty written potentially years down the road when everyone has had a chance to cool off. The Alliance essentially holding Orgrimmar hostage to extract demands from the Horde would only ensure the Horde never stops fighting them.
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100 Human Paladin
12005
Wow....I haven't seen this much wangsting in a LONG !@#$ing time.

If Blizz gave me the chance to go to Stormwind and canonically wipe my %^- with it, I wouldn't ask for a damn thing. That in itself is MORE than sufficient.


The only thing we'll be wiping is our feet at the doormat before we ensure that all the little orc orphans are safe (so they can grow up to be blood thirsty savages fighting whatever war against the Alliance happens to be going on at the time).

As far as the circumstances of the siege go, they'd have to be pretty damn exceptional, and Blizzard just isn't capable of exceptional story telling. Odds are that all of us interested in the story, not just Alliance players, will have facepalmed ourselves red by the time MoP is concluded.
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85 Human Paladin
6185
If I am to predict the cirucmstances, it will be Vol´jin, Saurfang, Go´el or Baine the ones wich asks us to put Go´el again on charge of the Horde, and we will help wihtout asking anything in return because we are just chill like that.

Now the only alternative to this is "lolz Garrosh is cazy, becomes a treath to the world, you know the drill" if you are Alliance you get kicked out of Ogrimar by the non-Garrosh Horde after you are done killing him, if you are Horde you just recaptured the city.

Or a combination of both explaining that "Garrosh is a treath to the world so great that the Alliance cant stop alone (go figure) so we will be joining the Horde to kill the tyrant". Again whithout asking anything in return

And we all facepalm happily ever after.
Edited by Fincarn on 6/29/2012 2:37 AM PDT
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100 Worgen Warrior
17160
Aside from the fact that Garrosh may become a threat to Azeroth as a whole, we also have to consider things beyond the scope of MoP.

The Burning Legion is going to be launching another major invasion. It's not really a question of if anymore, it's a question of when. If Varian Wrynn knows this, he'll jump at an opportunity to help put a more amicable Warchief in charge of the Horde. Fighting the Horde until they are obliterated might appeal to people who want vengeance for this or that, but the only thing it will accomplish in the long run is doom all of Azeroth when the Legion comes.

As for territorial concessions, those can be left for a formal peace treaty written potentially years down the road when everyone has had a chance to cool off. The Alliance essentially holding Orgrimmar hostage to extract demands from the Horde would only ensure the Horde never stops fighting them.

After Wrathgate and Broken Front, I'm not entirely convinced an Alliance+Horde fighting force would be stronger than a strictly Alliance one that didn't have to constantly worry about being stabbed in the back.
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90 Night Elf Mage
5050
The Horde completely withdraws from Ashenvale and Stonetalon and never enters those lands again.

The Forsaken completely withdraw from Gilneas and never to enter those lands again. Additionally, the Horde signs a treaty that states that if the Forsaken ever use the plague the Horde will join the Alliance in destroying them.
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100 Human Warrior
7715
I used this for a different thread but I think it fits here as well.

I see three posibilities for why the Alliance would withdraw from Orgrimar.

Bare in mind that since none of us really know how the story in MoP will play out yet all of these are speculation.

1. Having regained lands that the Alliance had lost, done considerable damage to the Horde Military (to the point that the Alliance feels it has had apropriate retribution for Theramore), and that Orgrimar is in a resource poor land with no great strategic value for the Alliance they choose to leave it. If the city is of no value to the Alliance and they intend to take the moral high ground why occupy or destroy it?

2. The siege of Orgirmar while successful was costly. In order to assail the city the Alliance lost hundreds or even thousands of soldiers. Combined with their loses throughout the rest of MoP the Alliance realizes that they do not have enough soldiers to hold Orgrimar and not enough time to destroy it before the Horde regroups. Faced with the option of being caught inside a city that they could not hold and be difficult to resupply or withdrawing to preserve their forces for other operations the Alliance decides to act in the best interest of their troops and withdraw.

3. The only reason the Alliance succeeded in laying sige to Orgrimar was with the aid of a faction within the Horde that wants Garrosh removed. Without the aid of this faction the Alliance can not maintain its presence in Durotar. But this faction has made an agreement with the Alliance that so long as the Alliance withdraws peacefully they will not oppose them. Choosing to keep their word the Alliance withdraws to Ashenvale.

Really it will depend on how the story in MoP plays out.
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85 Draenei Death Knight
3100
I'd demand they help us kill Varian. Cause he's really annoying. They take King Chin and off him behind a wood shed, I'll call it even.
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100 Worgen Warrior
17160
I used this for a different thread but I think it fits here as well.

I see three posibilities for why the Alliance would withdraw from Orgrimar.

Bare in mind that since none of us really know how the story in MoP will play out yet all of these are speculation.

1. Having regained lands that the Alliance had lost, done considerable damage to the Horde Military (to the point that the Alliance feels it has had apropriate retribution for Theramore), and that Orgrimar is in a resource poor land with no great strategic value for the Alliance they choose to leave it. If the city is of no value to the Alliance and they intend to take the moral high ground why occupy or destroy it?

2. The siege of Orgirmar while successful was costly. In order to assail the city the Alliance lost hundreds or even thousands of soldiers. Combined with their loses throughout the rest of MoP the Alliance realizes that they do not have enough soldiers to hold Orgrimar and not enough time to destroy it before the Horde regroups. Faced with the option of being caught inside a city that they could not hold and be difficult to resupply or withdrawing to preserve their forces for other operations the Alliance decides to act in the best interest of their troops and withdraw.

3. The only reason the Alliance succeeded in laying sige to Orgrimar was with the aid of a faction within the Horde that wants Garrosh removed. Without the aid of this faction the Alliance can not maintain its presence in Durotar. But this faction has made an agreement with the Alliance that so long as the Alliance withdraws peacefully they will not oppose them. Choosing to keep their word the Alliance withdraws to Ashenvale.

Really it will depend on how the story in MoP plays out.
The problem with the first is that just leaving the city to the Horde is asking for them to regroup and attack again once they've rebuilt their armies. The Horde couldn't coexist peacefully with the Alliance before Garrosh took the reins, and there's no reason to assume things will be any different once he's gone. There's taking the moral high ground, and then there's just being naive.

The problem with the second two is that the Horde will have just gone through a very bloody civil war that (should have) greatly fractured their strength. The Horde should be in much worse shape than the Alliance at that point, unless Blizz is planning on making us spend another expansion as the punching bag.... Which would just be another set of issues.
Edited by Arberus on 6/29/2012 4:54 AM PDT
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