Question for Alliance Players(Mop Spoilers)

90 Human Warrior
13525
06/30/2012 10:30 AMPosted by Desidarius
You two make no sense whatsoever...


I am making sense. You're just choosing not to accept it. That's your fault not mine.


Jaina is not 100. She looks 30, tops. She hasn't had "Decades." She's had years, maybe one decade, but not enough to make her Merlin or Gandalf. I STILL want a source on her being the most powerful mage alive. She's the most powerful Human mage. And one of the most powerful Kirin Tor. Wowpedia says so. But that doesn't really MEAN anything. Humans aren't great mages anyway compared to Highborne or Blood Elves. I'd wager Rommath would flatten her in a Mage Fight.

Also, gameplay mechanics for what's "Instant." Remember, Shamans can Astral Recall too. And Thrall has The Doomhammer which is detrimental to the health of Mages (Or anything else that exists for that matter) who are within a hundred yards of him and he doesn't feel like looking at anymore.

I'm a little slow off the mark, I'm having trouble convincing myself this is really happening. Are you really arguing that Thrall could be beaten by Jaina? I get that people like her (Well, I'm aware of it at least) but this is like saying Black Widow could beat Thor in a fight by putting him in fluffy pink handcuffs.

Stop trying to confuse me with your "It's ice, but it isn't, but it is, but it isn't" routine. Because I'm tired and it might work. The Water Elemental is an elemental. A Mage summons it. Therefore we can safely draw the conclusion that they use their Arcane powers to manipulate elemental energy. Or just plain old manipulation of the world around them. Which would still not result in Frozen Arcane-flavoured cordial.


Like I said Arcane is pure magic. What more do you want. That's how it is.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
2470
The immediate withdrawal of all Horde troops from Ashenvale, Gilneas, and all other occupied Alliance lands; the destruction of all Forsaken plagues and the cessation of their development; custody of Sylvanas Windrunner, her Val'kyr and all members of the RAS to be turned over to the Alliance as war criminals; and the new Warchief's word that the Forsaken will be expelled from the Horde should any of them continue her work.

But we'll end up doing it for free, just because we're nice guys and the Orcs are just innocent victims who need our help.


Even if Blizzard devoted the resources to allow all this to happen, the Alliance would still complain. lol
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88 Blood Elf Paladin
7585
06/30/2012 10:31 AMPosted by Elenie
There isn't a point arguing with him. I gave him evidence, and he can't accept it.


Evidence? Are you serious? That paragraph had nothing to do with Fire and Frost themselves, it had to do with the Schools of magic they were in. Frost and fire aren't the magic they're the product of magic. You use arcane to throw fire or ice at people. You don't summon some artificial frost substitute to... I'm not even going to finish. Whatever, you people are something else...
Edited by Desidarius on 6/30/2012 10:44 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Shaman
10525
06/30/2012 10:23 AMPosted by Elenie
But the conjured item or force isn't natural either. It's not real water or fire.


How do we know it isn't natural? (edit: natural in the sense that it is real - clouds are merely water vapor which is everpresent in the atmosphere. How do you know the conjured water isn't made of water from the atmosphere and that the arcane magic provides the means to condense it?)

And why does any of this matter?
Edited by Iyotanka on 6/30/2012 10:46 AM PDT
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88 Blood Elf Paladin
7585


No it doesn't, it means that Fire and Frost magic "schools" are part of Arcane magic "school". It does NOT mean that it isn't real fire or water. Anything more is something you've made up and added yourself.

The idea that fire and water are anything but that in the game are unprecedented and ridiculous.


Whatever it is, it still means a shaman can NOT shut down mage's powers very easily. The shaman will not be able to nullify the frost and fire powers a mage has.


You're right, the best he could do is create some type of elemental shield. If he were caught off-guard though she'd have him beat. Plot armor not included.
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90 Tauren Shaman
10525
06/30/2012 10:47 AMPosted by Desidarius
You're right, the best he could do is create some type of elemental shield. If he were caught off-guard though she'd have him beat. Plot armor not included.


Why wouldn't a shaman have the ability to interrupt a mage's spellcasting?
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88 Blood Elf Paladin
7585
06/30/2012 10:49 AMPosted by Iyotanka
You're right, the best he could do is create some type of elemental shield. If he were caught off-guard though she'd have him beat. Plot armor not included.


Why wouldn't a shaman have the ability to interrupt a mage's spellcasting?


Well I was speaking from her catching him off his guard. I don't really know if she could take him head on. Wasn't this argument about her popping in and flash freezing him?
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100 Human Mage
9210
06/30/2012 10:49 AMPosted by Iyotanka
You're right, the best he could do is create some type of elemental shield. If he were caught off-guard though she'd have him beat. Plot armor not included.


Why wouldn't a shaman have the ability to interrupt a mage's spellcasting?


Yup. Similar to how a mage can interrupt a Shaman's spellcasting. Heck, an enchanted cage shut down the, 'World Shaman's,' power.
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
06/30/2012 10:23 AMPosted by Elenie
But the conjured item or force isn't natural either. It's not real water or fire.

Ah. But one can eat a magically conjured piece of bread and be sustained by it, no? The bread, though definitely brought into existence via magic, is still bread.

And, as we've seen, magi can in fact deal to some extent with elementals, as in the summoning of water elementals.

So it's conceivable that the ice summoned via arcane magic is as subject to the "natural" laws of Azeroth as regular ice.

06/30/2012 10:33 AMPosted by Elenie
Yeah. Did you forget how the Alliance captured Thrall during the Lost Isles questing for the Goblins? I'll give you a hint... the cage was magical. Arcane magical.

It was Gnomish actually, not magical. :P

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=14241
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88 Blood Elf Paladin
7585


You're right, the best he could do is create some type of elemental shield. If he were caught off-guard though she'd have him beat. Plot armor not included.


What I mean is that a shaman would not be able to nullify a mage from using the frost and fire aspects of their magic by having the water and fire elements keep that ability from beinmg used by the mage.

As per your example, a mage drawing water from the air and heat from the surroundings (it doesn't work that way, but for the sake of argument, let's say it does) could be shut out completely from those schools by a shaman that had the elements prevent the mage from using the water and heat in the first place.

That's what I'm saying will not work.


No but he could hit the Frostbolt or whatever with a fireball of his own, melt it down, or just move out of the way. I don't really know. It's something we'd have to see.

Regardless of the fight it all comes down to plot armor and who blizzard wants to focus on currently.
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100 Human Mage
9210
06/30/2012 11:00 AMPosted by Kellick
And, as we've seen, magi can in fact deal to some extent with elementals, as in the summoning of water elementals.


We know that is the result of Conjuring drinking water without a glass, as per the Schools of Arcane Magic - Conjuring. Likewise, we also know conjured substances disappear after a while. You could say its a game mechanic, but why? What does the game mechanic exactly do? This is probably one of the few cases of a game mechanic supporting lore.

06/30/2012 11:00 AMPosted by Kellick
It was Gnomish actually, not magical. :P


I'd like to know how Thrall couldn't rip it to shreds then, please. I was always told it was magical (I've never been able to do the Goblin starting zones, I can't stand Grand Theft Auto style of gameplay).
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
06/30/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Elenie
I'd like to know how Thrall couldn't rip it to shreds then, please. I was always told it was magical (I've never been able to do the Goblin starting zones, I can't stand Grand Theft Auto style of gameplay).

The cage was presumably reinforced with plotonium. :P
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100 Human Mage
9210
I'd like to know how Thrall couldn't rip it to shreds then, please. I was always told it was magical (I've never been able to do the Goblin starting zones, I can't stand Grand Theft Auto style of gameplay).

The cage was presumably reinforced with plotonium. :P


Ah, I've found it.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Precious_Cargo

The Completion quest, Thrall's own words:

If not for you, I would surely be on my way back to Stormwind to be paraded as a trophy and a slave.

The Alliance dogs found me unconscious on the shore and put me in this arcane cage. It was keeping me from connecting with the elements.

No longer!
Edited by Elenie on 6/30/2012 11:08 AM PDT
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
Ah, I've found it.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Precious_Cargo

The Completion quest, Thrall's own words:

And, as I've said.

Hmm, looks like overly-complicated gnomish engineering with lots of unnecessary instrumentation and safety precautions.


It was as much engineering as arcane.
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100 Human Mage
9210
06/30/2012 11:12 AMPosted by Kellick
It was as much engineering as arcane.


That was referencing the Gyrocopter. They hadn't even found Thrall's cage by then. Sorry, Thrall's cage was 100% Arcane, no techno babble involved.

[Edit]: If you read the two sets of quest texts, you'll realize the, 'Get to the Gyrochoppa!' quest ends with trying to figure out how to turn it on. You're not even on the ship that has Thrall then.
Edited by Elenie on 6/30/2012 11:16 AM PDT
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
06/30/2012 11:15 AMPosted by Elenie
That was referencing the Gyrocopter. They hadn't even found Thrall's cage by then. Sorry, Thrall's cage was 100% Arcane, no techno babble involved.

Ah, so it'd seem.

You're talking about a cage, not a block of ice though.

It's entirely feasible that a cage might be enchanted with arcane to have properties which interfere with a shaman's abilities but, near as I can tell, there's no such thing as a "cage" elemental or element.

There are however elements relevant to ice and water with which one could communicate.
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100 Night Elf Druid
6920
06/30/2012 11:00 AMPosted by Kellick
But the conjured item or force isn't natural either. It's not real water or fire.

Ah. But one can eat a magically conjured piece of bread and be sustained by it, no? The bread, though definitely brought into existence via magic, is still bread.

And, as we've seen, magi can in fact deal to some extent with elementals, as in the summoning of water elementals.

So it's conceivable that the ice summoned via arcane magic is as subject to the "natural" laws of Azeroth as regular ice.

Yeah. Did you forget how the Alliance captured Thrall during the Lost Isles questing for the Goblins? I'll give you a hint... the cage was magical. Arcane magical.

It was Gnomish actually, not magical. :P

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=14241


He is refering to the Gyrocopter when he talks about it being gnomish not the cage. If you notice he says

"Hmm, where the heck is the ignition?

It'll be a wonder if it flies without doing something weird, like turning into a chicken or shrinking down to the size of an ant.

Hey look, someone left their loose change in the ashtray! What else is in there?"

He isn't flying a cage.
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