MoP Prot Warrior Theorycrafting

100 Orc Warrior
18570

How much stance dancing do you feel we'll be doing, say when we're OT'ing, i.e. not getting hit by something?


None. GC's reaction to the prot warrs in beta using battle stance to faceroll heroics resulted in Vengeance now falling off the second you change stances, and SS + revenge no longer generating rage outside def stance. As a result theres no reason at all to ever leave defensive stance, it will be a survivability, rage and DPS loss.
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90 Undead Warrior
15325
Regarding Shield Block versus Shield Barrier (and mastery), GC said this today:

We think Prot's mastery works. Block chance is still useful since you can't get 100% uptime of Shield Block. Shield Barrier is getting a lot of attention now because it works so well on easier dungeons and older content, but we expect warriors will still be using Shield Block a lot on tougher fights.


I was boss today on Lei Shei testing because all of her damage was magical, so I was popping muh Shield Barrier on every other cast almost and mitigating a lot of damage.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
13905
07/06/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Freese
I was boss today on Lei Shei testing because all of her damage was magical, so I was popping muh Shield Barrier on every other cast almost and mitigating a lot of damage.

Even if it was a lot, did Barrier feel like it was working as Blizzard intends?
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
07/05/2012 05:56 PMPosted by Belchh
None. GC's reaction to the prot warrs in beta using battle stance to faceroll heroics resulted in Vengeance now falling off the second you change stances, and SS + revenge no longer generating rage outside def stance. As a result theres no reason at all to ever leave defensive stance, it will be a survivability, rage and DPS loss.

As a side note (and while this is unrelated to Prot warriors, it is related to stance dancing) and despite GC's steadfast assertions to the opposite (ie. that Bearcat didn't break anything, when the dev team explicitly said so at Blizzcon), I suspect Guardians will be expected to do so as well.

Which makes sense, I just wish someone would've just said so straight out.
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80 Human Paladin
1805
Regarding Shield Block versus Shield Barrier (and mastery), GC said this today:

We think Prot's mastery works. Block chance is still useful since you can't get 100% uptime of Shield Block. Shield Barrier is getting a lot of attention now because it works so well on easier dungeons and older content, but we expect warriors will still be using Shield Block a lot on tougher fights.


I was boss today on Lei Shei testing because all of her damage was magical, so I was popping muh Shield Barrier on every other cast almost and mitigating a lot of damage.


I'm really glad our barrier is looking at strong as it does. I believe you made mention of it yourself freese but to reiterate, I think a big missing piece to warriors was the lack of a pure magical DR ability.

How much of a benefit do you feel de linking LS and RC will have? Also, do you see VR being included in our rotation more often than what it was. I never put points in Impending victory but i i have always felt it was an ability(un-spec'ed Victory rush) that showed potential.
Edited by Bekks on 7/8/2012 8:31 AM PDT
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85 Night Elf Warrior
15680
I'll miss you, colossus smash. :(
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100 Draenei Shaman
9475
Regarding Shield Block versus Shield Barrier (and mastery), GC said this today:



I was boss today on Lei Shei testing because all of her damage was magical, so I was popping muh Shield Barrier on every other cast almost and mitigating a lot of damage.


I'm really glad our barrier is looking at strong as it does. I believe you made mention of it yourself freese but to reiterate, I think a big missing piece to warriors was the lack of a pure magical DR ability.

How much of a benefit do you feel de linking LS and RC will have? Also, do you see VR being included in our rotation more often than what it was. I never put points in Impending victory but i i have always felt it was an ability(un-spec'ed Victory rush) that showed potential.


My napkin math says Barrier is too strong for normal mode raiding in regards to barrier VS block, and the quick estimations from the logs I can view are supporting that theory. If it's balanced around heroic raiding, then probably.

De-linking LS and RC is huge, and there's really no other way to put that. It increases the amount of cooldown up-time Warriors have (because RC was generally pressed more than LS because of the overall greater benifit of having a raid cooldown)

I assume you're talking about Impending Victory VS Enraged Regeneration? ER is still better IMO, because it still scales pretty nicely with used compiled with Last Stand to give the most out of effective healing per tick. Because IR uses resources even at 1/6 overall it's not AS effective and has adverse effects. IR does more healing, but for it to do more healing overall you're going to miss out on some barriers and blocks. If you use both without LS, it comes to about even (napkin math including the rage loss and less block/barrier) but if you compile it with Last Stand, it's not a contest at that point.
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90 Undead Warrior
15325
Regarding Shield Block versus Shield Barrier (and mastery), GC said this today:



I was boss today on Lei Shei testing because all of her damage was magical, so I was popping muh Shield Barrier on every other cast almost and mitigating a lot of damage.


I'm really glad our barrier is looking at strong as it does. I believe you made mention of it yourself freese but to reiterate, I think a big missing piece to warriors was the lack of a pure magical DR ability.

How much of a benefit do you feel de linking LS and RC will have? Also, do you see VR being included in our rotation more often than what it was. I never put points in Impending victory but i i have always felt it was an ability(un-spec'ed Victory rush) that showed potential.


I am going to answer some stuff that you asked here, and I hope it will start some more discussions.

I have found that "the best" with regards to Shield Barrier and Shield Block completely depends on the situation. This may be frustrating for some people, but I forsee a lot of MoP tanks having to adapt and react to whatever the situation calls for. This is (mostly) far removed from Cata where we could give general advice like "use this spec for everything" or "gem this specific way for everything." In many of the MoP raid bosses I've tested so far, I could be using Shield Block 9 times in a row but then switch to Shield Barrier for one special attack.

On the Sha of Fear test, for instance, I used Shield Block while tanking the boss himself because he hits hard. In situations where the boss is consistently hitting hard, Shield Block will be good because you get more long term survivability. Then, when I was transferred to a different platform on this fight, I used nothing but Shield Barrier because there were these orbs that have to be collected or else they will heal the mob you're trying to kill. These orbs do magic damage to the player and restore the player's primary resource (i.e. you run over the orb and it automatically gives you 100 rage). The latter mechanic allowed me to spam Shield Barrier and collect a majority of the orbs so that the DPS could focus more on killing the mob and the healer could focus on healing.

With regards to unlinking RC and LS: this was a welcome change. Also, I am very glad that I no longer have to save my shield wall for the raid. The problem with prot warriors in Dragon Soul (at least before all the major nerfs) was that we had to save our personal CDs for the raid. This meant that we took more damage than other tanks simply because we couldn't use our personal CDs for ourselves. During Heroic Yorsahj progress (again, before the nerfs), I died many times because I had to save my shield wall for the heavy AoE damage combos. On the one hand I like being able to supply the raid with some sort of damage reduction CD (like the Demoralizing Banner), but I don't want to have to sacrifice my own surviability to do so.

I see that some people are talking about the differences between Victory Rush and Enraged Regeneration. Personally, I've been running with glyphed Victory Rush on all fights simply because it has a shorter CD. The key to using VR (and ER for that matter) is to time them correctly. For instance, if you were anticipating a big attack, you could use your VR and Healthstone right after the hit occurred to heal yourself for a substantial amount of damage. I suck at math myself, so I'll wait to see what those who are better with calculators have to say about the two; again, I've just been running with VR because I like it better.
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80 Human Paladin
1805
07/08/2012 09:37 PMPosted by Freese
I have found that "the best" with regards to Shield Barrier and Shield Block completely depends on the situation. This may be frustrating for some people, but I forsee a lot of MoP tanks having to adapt and react to whatever the situation calls for. This is (mostly) far removed from Cata where we could give general advice like "use this spec for everything" or "gem this specific way for everything." In many of the MoP raid bosses I've tested so far, I could be using Shield Block 9 times in a row but then switch to Shield Barrier for one special attack.


I personally think this is going to be a welcome move away from the more linear design that has been implemented for warriors. Bottom line, I rather make a mistake with a bad choice and learn from it then have no choice at all and just have to deal with it. That also redirects to my previous question I may have asked in another thread of; "how often do you feel we'll be re-speccing?"

07/08/2012 09:37 PMPosted by Freese
With regards to unlinking RC and LS: this was a welcome change. Also, I am very glad that I no longer have to save my shield wall for the raid. The problem with prot warriors in Dragon Soul (at least before all the major nerfs) was that we had to save our personal CDs for the raid. This meant that we took more damage than other tanks simply because we couldn't use our personal CDs for ourselves. During Heroic Yorsahj progress (again, before the nerfs), I died many times because I had to save my shield wall for the heavy AoE damage combos. On the one hand I like being able to supply the raid with some sort of damage reduction CD (like the Demoralizing Banner), but I don't want to have to sacrifice my own surviability to do so.


Since you used Yor'sahj as an example do you feel trinkets will play as much of a dynamic role in our tanking, specifically prot warrior'ing as they have been? Has blizzard ever commented on the fact that items such as MoBI were being used 2 tiers of raiding later or even us swapping out trinkets on a per fight basis?

07/08/2012 09:37 PMPosted by Freese
I see that some people are talking about the differences between Victory Rush and Enraged Regeneration. Personally, I've been running with glyphed Victory Rush on all fights simply because it has a shorter CD. The key to using VR (and ER for that matter) is to time them correctly. For instance, if you were anticipating a big attack, you could use your VR and Healthstone right after the hit occurred to heal yourself for a substantial amount of damage. I suck at math myself, so I'll wait to see what those who are better with calculators have to say about the two; again, I've just been running with VR because I like it better.


I don't see VR being used as dependently as say DS is used by DKs but I do agree with you as far as consistency and availibility as far as the CD goes.

For right now I truly believe warriors are going to be in an excellent place come MoP, however I can't help but feel that war banners are still going to be clunky and cumbersome to use and manage.

Thankyou again for opening up this discussion, it has been immensely insightful and I hope all prot warriors who read this thread get as excited to tank as I am.
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90 Undead Warrior
15325
Since you used Yor'sahj as an example do you feel trinkets will play as much of a dynamic role in our tanking, specifically prot warrior'ing as they have been? Has blizzard ever commented on the fact that items such as MoBI were being used 2 tiers of raiding later or even us swapping out trinkets on a per fight basis?


I haven't heard anything from Blizzard, but trinkets will always play a role in tanking. One "absolute truth" of tanking that I think will remain in MoP is that you'll want to use whatever trinket provides you with the best survivability on a fight-by-fight basis.

For right now I truly believe warriors are going to be in an excellent place come MoP, however I can't help but feel that war banners are still going to be clunky and cumbersome to use and manage.


I have seen a lot of people complain about the war banners, and I must admit that I'm confused a little by this. A common criticism I've heard of prot warriors (and DPS warriors) over the years is that we did not have any sort of raid cooldown to help the raid. Rallying Cry was a step in the right direction to correct this problem, and now I think that the banners are going to be even better for us. 10% reduced damage or 30% more critical damage may not seem much, but those values really add up from my point of view when you're tackling heroic raid bosses before the major nerfs.

Honestly, my only problem with war banners is how they look. I wish they would make the banners look more awesome.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
15680
Yeah, the safeguard/vigi/msr tier is probably my favourite tier in terms of design. Although thats probably because its the only one where I don't feel like I'm losing something important. ;p

Re: Banners
They still have some serious issues. With the linked cooldown, I can't ever see myself using the aoe taunt one, and the demo one is going to be exceedingly rare.
Edited by Dellingr on 7/9/2012 9:51 AM PDT
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90 Undead Warrior
15325
Yeah, the safeguard/vigi/msr tier is probably my favourite tier in terms of design. Although thats probably because its the only one where I don't feel like I'm losing something important. ;p

Re: Banners
They still have some serious issues. With the linked cooldown, I can't ever see myself using the aoe taunt one, and the demo one is going to be exceedingly rare.


They have a linked CD? They haven't been linking on my end.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
15680
Hm, I havent really fiddled with them in a couple builds. If they're delinked that gripe goes away. ;p
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90 Human Paladin
8390
07/08/2012 10:11 PMPosted by Bekks
Has blizzard ever commented on the fact that items such as MoBI were being used 2 tiers of raiding later or even us swapping out trinkets on a per fight basis?


I don't think they have ever had a problem with it. I mean, Unholy couldn't get half the benefit of the FL trinkets as the other plate specs, for example.
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90 Undead Warrior
15325
07/09/2012 10:46 AMPosted by Dellingr
Hm, I havent really fiddled with them in a couple builds. If they're delinked that gripe goes away. ;p


I just tried them again and they definitely do not share CDs with one another. :D
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85 Night Elf Warrior
15680
Well good, it was annoying and stupid. But now I need to find another keybind.. D:
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
12340
honestly i do not think we will be stacking mastery in MoP unless mastery gets looked at again.

currently 600 mastery gives only .5% block and 4% crit block, add in the fact that block is now on a separate attack table from dodge, parry, and miss and it looks very underwhelming (keep in mind currently base block is 17% naked) it also provides very minor rage generation compared to dodge/parry/hit/exp

tho i will admit i have not done any math to say if it is or is not better then dodge or parry (or even hit or exp)
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100 Human Warrior
13915
07/09/2012 08:21 AMPosted by Paintbrush
They could've done more with the concept. That's... really all I have to say there. It was a very cool concept which could've added quite a bit of unique utility, or even similar utility to other classes (easier to balance, less punishing for 10m group comps), but... ah, well.


That's basically my gripe with it too; having more utility? Awesome. Having utility that's honestly kind of boring looking? Ehhhh...

The Vigi/Safeguard/MSR tier is glorious in that it's the one tier that (as Dell said) I'm not trying to re-gain something I've lost, and it's also interesting flavor choices too (that also partially hinges on whether or not Spell Reflect works on more spells as well though).

But at least banners aren't on the same cooldown? That's good.
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90 Undead Warrior
15325
Ghostcrawler had more to say today about the difference between Shield Block and Shield Barrier:

Vengeance should work just like any other AP buff. For tanks, we explicitly make certain abilities scale with AP, so that they do become stronger while tanking. I think the simplest example is Shield Block vs. Shield Barrier. We want Shield Block to generally win against hard hitting (such as raid boss) creatures, and Shield Barrier to win against weaker hitting creatures. But we don’t want that difference to be so stark that the other feels useless in either situation. Shield Block naturally scales with the incoming damage. We made Shield Barrier scale with AP, since we know that your AP is also going to be higher when fighting those harder hitting creatures, thanks to Vengeance. If something scales off for AP and isn’t counting Vengeance that sounds like a bug. The one you mention, Anti-Magic Zone, scales with 400% of Str for Blood / Frost and 325% for Unholy (to counteract the +25% Str that Unholy gets). We didn't want AMZ to be significantly stronger for Frost or Unholy, such that you're asked to switch specs just to bring a stronger cooldown.


With regards to Revenge, some one pointed out that it might need some reworking for single target bosses because the ability does not proc very often if you're tanking a single boss. In its current state, Revenge is only a proc and has no CD.This player suggested that

Revenge - 4.5 sec cooldown. Instantly attack an enemy and two additional enemies for X damage. If Revenge is on cooldown, a successful dodge or parry refreshes Revenge. Generates 10 Rage in Defensive Stance.


Ghostcrawler acknowledged this feedback and said:

We're going to try something like this (probably with a longer cooldown). It helps to cover up streaks of not getting to use Revenge. It does lose a tiny bit of the Revenge kit.
Edited by Freese on 7/9/2012 6:27 PM PDT
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