MoP Prot Warrior Theorycrafting

85 Night Elf Warrior
0
The odd thing is I remember Blizzard specifically saying why rage was a different resource - the element of randomness, the white hits. Taking that out when rage is a central mechanic for Warriors is just odd.

It makes sense from a balance standpoint (for an AM playstyle), but... yeah.


Except it doesn't there either. Rage gained from white attacks is a finite *known* value. Rage from damage taken can just as easily have been a known and finite value. It's called an ICD. You gain X amount of rage when attacked up to once ever X seconds.

It's still "rage" as we've always known it, just in a diminished capacity, rather than "red combo-point-energy".
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90 Human Death Knight
17160
07/12/2012 12:21 AMPosted by Dellingr
Its frustrating how they've decided all melee need combo points and/or an energy variant. Why do we all need to play rogues, again?


Way off topic, But I have a rogue, so I pay pay attention to the rogue stuff. Time and time again rogues keep complaining how they keep pushing more and more damage to passive, and that the rotations become more simple and boring. Every time someone at Blizzard comes back with that they think the rogue/feral system of energy and combo points is the best system so they are hesitant to make broad changes. I guess they somewhat have a point. Feral and assassination tend to be the specs least affected by latency for example.

The reason I bring it up is because maybe in the back of some developers mind, switching to a "rogueish" system is the best. Boring and homogenous, but still the best. But this is a /tinfoilhat thought, so it may be pure cow dung.
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64 Draenei Death Knight
10235
Though, blizzard seems to not understand what makes the rogue/feral system lag friendly. They thought it was because they had free GCDs in their rotation, but thats really just a side affect of what makes them lag friendly. They are lag friendly because they have abilities that are not limited by a cooldown but are limited by resource. When a class is limited by cooldowns only, then they become lag unfriendly because you cannot queue up an ability that still has a cooldown on it.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
15680
The only reason why I'm having issues considering rerolling is that every other class is getting "Free GCD'd" even worse than warriors. It's really quite frustrating.
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64 Draenei Death Knight
10235
Blood would of been fine without the 1 second GCD change.
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90 Draenei Warrior
13805
The latency thing is another reason why I'm not looking forward to MoP warriors. I hate having my geographical location be a disadvantage to me.
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Attack tables, CTC, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
I never found cooldown-locked rotations to be engaging. Playing my paladin was incredibly dull because of how rigid the structure is. You could wait on using that ability for an event, but then you're simply wasting time that you should be spending with it on cooldown.

There's a buffer for that with DKs at least, but latency is awful for us, too.
Edited by Euliat on 7/12/2012 2:11 PM PDT
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100 Human Warrior
12440
The energy system itself isn't really that good, but it's the classes that were built with it in mind being a secondary resource that makes the system seem good, at least in my opinion.

That being said though, I do wonder what the internal decision on rage generation was, because they've (as stated earlier) always stated that it was supposed to have an idea of "randomness" that it doesn't really have anymore. I can sort of plan out how I'm going to get rage now via my rotation; not nearly in the same capacity a rogue does with Combo Points or a Paladin does with Holy Power, but it's getting there. They've also done this to a lot of classes in general this expac: Warlocks have to worry about Embers, Fury or Soul Shards, Druids have to worry about their sun vs eclipse stuff (afaik), and Shadow Priests now have to worry about Shadow Orbs as a sort of "Secondary resource influencing their damage and/or rotation."

We've got the same thing, but Rage has sort of morphed into the secondary resource as our primary. We don't really need a secondary because Rage functions like one, which is...weird, I guess.

I dunno, I'm rambling. >_>;
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90 Undead Warrior
15325
That being said though, I do wonder what the internal decision on rage generation was, because they've (as stated earlier) always stated that it was supposed to have an idea of "randomness" that it doesn't really have anymore. I can sort of plan out how I'm going to get rage now via my rotation; not nearly in the same capacity a rogue does with Combo Points or a Paladin does with Holy Power, but it's getting there. They've also done this to a lot of classes in general this expac: Warlocks have to worry about Embers, Fury or Soul Shards, Druids have to worry about their sun vs eclipse stuff (afaik), and Shadow Priests now have to worry about Shadow Orbs as a sort of "Secondary resource influencing their damage and/or rotation."


Rage is a lot more random now, though. You could get a Sword and Board proc, or you might not. You could also get a string of revenge procs, or you could not. Unlike many of you, I actually like the new AM style for Warriors A LOT. It is far more interesting than spamming Heroic Strike and trying hold threat as we've been doing over the past 8 years.

Also, I'm fairly certain Blizzard is going to update Revenge one more time in the beta:

Revenge - 4.5 sec cooldown. Instantly attack an enemy and two additional enemies for X damage. If Revenge is on cooldown, a successful dodge or parry refreshes Revenge. Generates 10 Rage in Defensive Stance.

We're going to try something like this (probably with a longer cooldown). It helps to cover up streaks of not getting to use Revenge. It does lose a tiny bit of the Revenge kit.
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100 Human Warrior
12440
07/13/2012 12:46 PMPosted by Freese
Rage is a lot more random now, though. You could get a Sword and Board proc, or you might not. You could also get a string of revenge procs, or you could not. Unlike many of you, I actually like the new AM style for Warriors A LOT. It is far more interesting than spamming Heroic Strike and trying hold threat as we've been doing over the past 8 years.


I still find that less "random" than the rage style we have now, to be frank. Having it depend on whether or not I get two procs doesn't really spell "randomness" to me, it just means I wait longer for something that will inevitably happen (That something being, I use Rage on Shield Barrier). At least now (Cata now) I can use my abilities because I have the rage to use them...in MoP I don't see me using Heroic Strike or Cleave very much at all, outside of Ultimatum procs. Ever. At least on raid content.

That honestly isn't very exciting to a lot of us, at very least me. But, different strokes as they say. >_>;

07/13/2012 12:46 PMPosted by Freese
Also, I'm fairly certain Blizzard is going to update Revenge one more time in the beta:


Probably with the longer cooldown that GC mentioned; you think they're going to update it another way besides that? In what way?
Edited by Lowmaine on 7/13/2012 1:51 PM PDT
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90 Undead Warrior
15325
Probably with the longer cooldown that GC mentioned; you think they're going to update it another way besides that? In what way?


No, I was just saying that they are going to change it from how it is on beta right now. Currently it has no CD and relies only on procs.

GC had more to say about Shield Barrier and Shield Block today:

I did some extensive mathematics on warrior tankiing, more precisely, Shield Block vs. Shield Barrier.

Short Version: There is currently nearly no reason for any warrior to use Shield Block. The amount of physical damage done by a boss melee swing to be high enough that the 30%/60% block outshines the absorb puts it out of reach of the vast majority of the playerbase. Obviously, this is even more true with non-blockable or magic damage, but even with the kind of attacks that can be blocked, Shield Barrier is just plain better for everything other than non-nerfed 25H bosses who use debuffs on the tank.


Thanks for the great analysis.

The scaling we chose for Shield Barrier was to keep it competitive with Shield Block with very high end gear (beyond even the gear available in the first tier). The problem is this is one of those situations where linear AP scaling can't really fit the curve nicely. Shield Barrier (and by extension Frenzied Regen) will either be too good at low gear levels or too weak at high gear levels. We could use a more complex curve, such as squaring attack power as long as that doesn't prove confusing. For sake of argument, imagine that Shield Barrier (and Frenzied Regen) is roughly half as strong as it is on beta when you're in greens, but scales up in strength about 50% faster than it currently does.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
And as I said before, I'm not entirely sure there is actually a problem here. You're comparing block during minimally threatening incoming-damage to Shield Barrier during significant incoming-damage. Under EQUAL scenarios I've not yet seen the problem you seem to think is there. When incoming-damage is comparably low, Shield Barrier's absorb has a static base amount to overcome first that Block doesn't, but when incoming-damage is high, Blocking is still more potent than Shield Barrier outside of very specific conditions. You need to compare apples to apples before coming any sort of conclusions.

Secondly (or perhaps more importantly) the conditions where you were getting some of these figures were so far from threatening that you could almost solo it. Of course Shield Barrier is going to look better under those conditions. Hardly taking ANY damage at all will do that. Semi-static absorb amounts do that. Just like Blood Shield or Pre-cata Block mechanics.

And in all honesty, I don't see any issue with Shield Barrier over-shadowing Shield Block in non-threatening content. It's practically a given in fact.
Edited by Feandel on 7/13/2012 2:51 PM PDT
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80 Human Paladin
1805
It's the individual's perogative as far as what they want to roll and reroll but I really don't see warriors being in any worse of a position then where we were in DS and to an extent late Cata in comparison to the other tanking roles. Even then we weren't in a "bad" place it's just comparatively speaking other tanks were just in a "better" place. Not to say there aren't concerns but I think people are "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" when it comes to potential rage issues.
Edited by Bekks on 7/15/2012 10:33 AM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4120
07/15/2012 10:32 AMPosted by Bekks
It's the individual's perogative as far as what they want to roll and reroll but I really don't see warriors being in any worse of a position then where we were in DS and to an extent late Cata in comparison to the other tanking roles. Even then we weren't in a "bad" place it's just comparatively speaking other tanks were just in a "better" place. Not to say there aren't concerns but I think people are "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" when it comes to potential rage issues.

For me, the playstyle really isn't the same, and really isn't that fun. I also don't look forward to being the one with the inadequate cooldowns (lol, short cooldown that only works on attackable targets in range :/) again.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
15680
Exactly - Most of the complaints aren't about relative balance (beyond cooldowns. again.) They're about the playstyle being just flat out slower and less fun.
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100 Human Warrior
12440
07/15/2012 10:32 AMPosted by Bekks
Even then we weren't in a "bad" place it's just comparatively speaking other tanks were just in a "better" place. Not to say there aren't concerns but I think people are "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" when it comes to potential rage issues.


Just to pipe in, I don't think most people who are saying they're toying with the idea of re-rolling are doing so because "Warriors are going to be bad tanks in Mists," but rather their actual playstyle compared to the playstyle many warriors have enjoyed on Live for years is so weird that a lot of people don't feel like it's the same class anymore...and a key part of that is rage generation. That has very little to do with whether or not we're "strong" or "weak" versus the content and more of a personal issue of play and what people find "fun."

Dragon Soul's a bit of a weird microcosm because of how the tier was designed; no tank received buffs/nerfs (besides Blood DKs, and even then they were QoL issues and not hardline "We're making this ability better" buffs) between T12 and T13 if memory serves. The thing that made Warriors weaker (compared to certain classes, and only in turn on certain encounters) was the way the fights were designed, not an inherent flaw in the class' design. The only place an outlier kind of exists is DKs and Yorsahj because of AMS, but AMS has been an outlier for...jeez, I don't even know how long at this point.

So really, I guess what I'm saying is that looking at it and comparing it to Dragon Soul is kind of strange, because realistically speaking tanks were very balanced; it was encounter design a lot of the time that skewed classes one way or the other.

For me, I'm not exactly happy with how they play, but it's a lot better than it was during the early part of Beta. I'd say it's probably "closest we're going to get" and calling it a wash. I've invested too much time into this character to really feel like giving up on her by now :P

07/13/2012 02:26 PMPosted by Freese
GC had more to say about Shield Barrier and Shield Block today:


Hmmm, interesting...

Edit: Well, that's what happens when I wait to say something for an hour with it sitting in the post window >_>;
Edited by Lowmaine on 7/15/2012 12:42 PM PDT
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100 Dwarf Warrior
13175
07/15/2012 12:41 PMPosted by Lowmaine
Just to pipe in, I don't think most people who are saying they're toying with the idea of re-rolling are doing so because "Warriors are going to be bad tanks in Mists," but rather their actual playstyle compared to the playstyle many warriors have enjoyed on Live for years is so weird that a lot of people don't feel like it's the same class anymore...and a key part of that is rage generation.

I'll admit to becoming slowly accepting of the new system, especially in dungeon encounters with enough mechanics active at once to keep me from noticing the passage of time, so to speak. Shield Barrier's usefulness and low cost helps too, of course. The change to Revenge, from my perspective, is the last piece to make 5.0 Protection's active mitigation passable in terms of gameplay.

I'd love to see the "speed" of play slightly increased through lower costs and shorter durations/strengths (think 25% less), and I miss constant use of HS/Cleave, but I'm otherwise ready to try Blizzard's new design.
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64 Draenei Death Knight
10235
Now back to theory crafting... Has anyone had the chance to start testing stamina vs avoidance? I would probably agree that as said before in this thread stamina is traditionally safe stat to stack for new content.


We cant tell at this point because it really depends on how hard bosses end up hitting. Quite often that changes from PTR/Beta to live so we really are going to have to wait.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13340
So not necessarily great at anything especially warrior'ing. How is the beta community wrapping their head around the recent changes to barrier and block.

Devastate additional damage increased by 2343%.
Shield Barrier now absorbs ((max(((AP * AP) * 186) / 10,000,000 + (47000% of AP / 100,002.5) * STA)) / 3) damage.
Shield Block no longer can be used twice within 15 sec.
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