Topic
"We consume content too fast?"
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Edited by Unhope on 7/18/12 3:24 AM (PDT)
I wish I could post on the eu forums, because the blue in this thread
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/228883-we-consume-content-too-fast/ is totally missing the point. Posted by Lambey The problem is the challenge. Raiding should be a progression of gear and skill. For a beginner raider, while the pinnacle of raiding is (and should be) far off. The gear progression of dragon soul has to be the worst I have ever seen especially when it comes to players who were capped out on the last tier. When you think about naxx in vanilla, or illidan in tbc they were and still are regarded extremely high. Why? Because it was a long and difficult road to get there. You knew that the challenge was there, you hadn't even seen it but you wanted to go there, becuase you wanted to discover it. You wanted to complete your journey there and then conquer your foe at the end of it. The sense of discovery and accomplishment for achieving something was much greater back then. Now you offer "routes" to that destination and are told that if you truly "want" to be challenged then you can take the harder route. When will you understand that its not the "route" we care about, its the destination. If I wanted to make things hard for myself I would join a guild where raid started 45 minutes after it was supposed to and raid with people who didn't care enough to gem or enchant their or learn their classes. I am speaking from the perspective of someone who was never world first material, and if I ever will be I still have a long way to go. I don't care if it would have meant that I wouldn't have killed heroic dw (a letdown fight to say the least) I care that my journey though this game is meaningful. When you offer shortcuts to me and the players around me I can't help but wonder what this game would be like without them. I wonder if I would enjoy the game more because what was once hard was easy not because of a nerf, but because I developed and improved. I have not tasted the raids or dungeons in the beta because I want to hit the ground running and plow through those heroics (hopefully similar in difficulty to the start of cata) and discover all the content in its purest form. So this is not a "omg mop is so easy" post. This post is purely based on the mindset blizzard has developed when handling cataclysm content. I want to mention that I am in a pretty good guild nowadays. This guild has had several new additions including myself, and is now a much better guild than it was when it killed heroic deathwing. I feel that we can take on everything you throw at us and slice right through it. Its a good feeling. This feeling is tainted, however, by the fact that I will be given shortcuts for the rest of my raiding days before I can get there myself. Stop it please. |
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By my fellow raiders, by many of the lovely ladies and gentlemen of the forums, by the trade chat pug hopefuls, and even by the people who didn't play the game back then but are aware of the legacy that has permeated into the general populace. |
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Back in Vanilla, the concept of end-game was progressing your character, and the only way to do that was to get the best gear available.
In order to make this task difficult, they limited what you could do from adding barriers like Attunements, to tossing raid lock outs so you couldn't raid every night. Add this in with the 40-man style raiding, and you get a very long end-end-game. Unfortunately, vanilla's end-game required a lot of man-hours, equal to any decent job in real life, and blizzard couldn't justify making content that only people who treated this as a job could see, so instead, they changed something else. They changed what progressing a character meant altogether, and with MoP, that's gonna change even more. Now you have things like Achievements, mounts, reputations, arena score, titles, vanity pets, vanity items, all to add more depth to what progressing your character meant. |
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If you want to relive what it was like to raid in Vanilla and TBC, go everyday for five days, and grind some mobs for about 4 hours. Then go pick herbs/fish/and or mine for another 2. Once that is done, run a dungeon for some resist gear/specific drops.
On your raid nights, have two people run to the entrance and use the meeting stone to summon your whole raid, or make your whole raid run out there. Refuse to start until everyone is ready, and kick anyone who didn't bring their own flask or food. To add to this fun, rerun all the t11 raids every week until your whole raid can do Firelands. Don't let anyone buy any VP gear, this will take the fun out of it. Once you can run Firelands, make sure you do the same thing, keep in mind you must back track to t11 in case you lose some people to get them geared, they are not allowed to buy any point gear either. Once Rag is on farm, feel free to go back and do the heroic modes. If that is not your fancy, then progress to Dragon Soul. Remember, if you lose anyone in your raid group, and you have to gear up new people, you must go all the way back to t11 and Firelands. There, you will have effectively relived the glory days of old raiding. |
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@Elunih what does character progression mean to you?
When I was a noobish paladin, I had some serious envy of all of the amazing raid mounts and the server first titles and the ridiculously good gear the server's finest showed off on a daily basis. I was not unhappy that my 15$ a month wasn't getting me exactly what I wanted. I did not feel entitled to these things. I was motivated. I wanted to become just as good as they were and do the same things they did and be that guy people looked up to. I feel I have progressed pretty far since then. But it means much less to people nowadays. Just look at any dragon soul hate post (there are many). When I was doing my heroic rag farm for my mount people would try to join and tell me they were a "Savior of Azeroth" like it meant something. I would bring them in and they would die to every mechanic possible. Its a downward spiral folks. |
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Edited by Unhope on 7/18/12 3:56 AM (PDT)
I would love this. Double edit: Edit was not edited in time. |
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Then get together with your guild and go do it. Nothing is stopping you from playing that way. I also noticed you left out the part about grinding and farming, you can't have one without the other, so you'll have to do that as well in order to raid. |
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When I was a noobish paladin, I had some serious envy of all of the amazing raid mounts and the server first titles and the ridiculously good gear the server's finest showed off on a daily basis. I was not unhappy that my 15$ a month wasn't getting me exactly what I wanted. I did not feel entitled to these things. I was motivated. I wanted to become just as good as they were and do the same things they did and be that guy people looked up to. The only one who can tell what your accomplishments are worth is yourself.
This honestly draws forth skepticism from me, you recruited people who were 8/8 H, and somehow these people did not understand the basic rules of raiding? Sounds like they bought their titles to me (which happened in Vanilla, BC, and Wrath too btw) or you're not revealing the whole truth. |
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You would have guilds running everything. Alt groups would progress through tier 12 and then tier 13. Performance would matter much more than gear and that new person you are talking about if he truly would have wanted to join tier 13 raids would have already been preparing himself through tier 11 and tier 12.
You join a guild at a certain progression, and if you are good enough, you move on. It happens sometimes throughout an entire tier or two, and for some it happens several times in a single tier. It is not instant, and recruitment would be harder, but your guild would also be much more risky to leave. And @ the comments of "you can't have one without the other." I grind and farm already. I ground the molten front dailies and the tol barad dailies for their respective trinkets. I ground all the rep for all of the different factions. On 3 different characters. I leveled 6 professions. I also am grinding argent tourney dailies and mahgar/sporregar rep on my lock as well as netherwing. While they are tiresome, its something many people haven't done, and there are tangible rewards for doing so. But I don't enjoy those things near as much as raiding. I can tell you that I would MUCH rather grind herbs mobs and 5mans then grind the hell that is looking for raid, which I had to do for 8 weeks to get 390 ilvl maw alone, and gave up on lfr cotc on my lock after getting heroic insignia. I killed heroic deathwing with that lfr maw. |
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Edited by Unhope on 7/18/12 4:08 AM (PDT)
When I was doing my heroic rag farm for my mount people would try to join and tell me they were a "Savior of Azeroth" like it meant something. I would bring them in and they would die to every mechanic possible. Its a downward spiral folks. This was a couple months ago and these people were in near bis with several kills. Many of them were more geared than I was at the time. It was unbelievable the first few times. EDIT: My guildies and a few people on blackrock can attest to this. If we brought a savior into our sinestra perfect run even when they had several sinestra kills, they would be the the one to mess it up. It was funny because at the time none of us had savior yet. |
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This was a couple months ago and these people were in near bis with several kills. Many of them were more geared than I was at the time gear with several kills. It was unbelievable the first few times. It still sounds unbelievable to me, you don't naturally progress through DS and H DS without listening to your raid leader as she/he explains the fights and the mechanics of the encounters. Having a H DS kill yourself, you already know that. |
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I think you overestimate just how much heroic spine and heroic deathwing test the skills of the individual raider. Because it did happen, and it happened a lot.
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Edited by Gambles on 7/18/12 4:22 AM (PDT)
Because people repeat things they've heard without actually knowing what the hell they are talking about. Naxx in vanilla and BT in TBC may have been great but the simple truth is so few people can comment intelligently on it that all the talk about how great they were is ridiculous. 1% saw Naxx when it was level appropriate. Around 4% saw BT in TBC. It would be like regarding a book highly even though you never read it but a friend of a friend of a friend knows a guy who made a video about how great the book was. And though you never will read it, deciding it is the greatest book ever written. |
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Edited by Unhope on 7/18/12 4:24 AM (PDT)
"Only 1% of people who go to concerts have been to Woodstock. Therefore it should not be even regarded highly by people who like concerts." Seriously, your argument is so full of holes its ridiculous. |
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It's not just those two fights that require you to coordinate as a group, Things like Hagara and Blackhorn. Especially if they naturally progressed from Normal mode DS to Heroic mode DS. I doubt they breezed through it like a mindless fool. Only 2 instances come to mind where they could have it and wipe the floor(lol) still. A. they bought it, or B. they subbed in and were the weakest link (we've had that before, long story) |
Are we talking about WoW or The Bible? O.o |
