World of Warcraft: Mists of Online Harassment

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8k damage? Are you just throwing knives at the boss?
90 Human Mage
13530
07/20/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Specialneeds
The biggest problem here is that when you try to be overly helpful, people see it as condescending, and if there's one thing that people hate, it's people calling them stupid.


I find that if you offer help in whispers instead of in party/raid chat people are more accepting because it doesn't seem like you're trying to be negative in front of other players.
90 Human Mage
13530
You can only be bullied by people who have an actual place and influence in your life, not by Stabyo the lvl 64 rogue on a random mmorpg server.

My gods, the world is full of sissies.


This is hardly true. You can be bullied anywhere there is human to human interaction.

If you claim there isn't any of that in WoW then you're dehumanizing those at the other end of toons and it shows some issues you have more than those who may end up being bullied.

Finally I would like to say your claim that the world is full of sissies shows you don't fully understand that every human is wired differently and some are more easily affected emotionally than others.

Some of these same people who may break down in tears from words can take probably take physical pain without crying or doing more than flinching that would possibly have you in tears at the mere thought of. Does that make you a sissie since there is likely people out there who are both emotionally and physically tougher than you?
90 Troll Priest
13125
It's also far too easy to do a simple search of google and/or these forums and come up with an optimal spec and dps rotation for your class and chosen spec. The other four players in the group don't want to carry you through the dungeon and they shouldn't have to. 8k dps is horrible and any fresh 80 that has a decent spec and rotation can do much better. Too many people these days have this entitlement complex about dungeons and think it's okay to go into heroics with terrible gear and the other players have to carry them.

edit: @OP That doesn't excuse the person in your group being rude to you, but you should have done your homework.


So perhaps the person isn't min-maxing the class to the last tenth of possible dps - he may still be playing to the best of HIS abilities, and it is both unrealistic and obnoxious to assume that, just because a certain amount of dps is possible, it is therefore required for everyone to do that amount of dps or else they are failures at the game and at life.

That's like saying that, since it's possible to score 1600 on the SATs, you are all scrubs for having scored less and you should drop out of school and resign yourself to flipping burgers for the rest of your life because of it.

And, under no circumstances is it appropriate to imply that it is this person's fault, if other players abuse him for dps.

Get some perspective.
90 Draenei Paladin
9275
So perhaps the person isn't min-maxing the class to the last tenth of possible dps - he may still be playing to the best of HIS abilities, and it is both unrealistic and obnoxious to assume that, just because a certain amount of dps is possible, it is therefore required for everyone to do that amount of dps or else they are failures at the game and at life.

That's like saying that, since it's possible to score 1600 on the SATs, you are all scrubs for having scored less and you should drop out of school and resign yourself to flipping burgers for the rest of your life because of it.

And, under no circumstances is it appropriate to imply that it is this person's fault, if other players abuse him for dps.

Get some perspective.


I think the point he was making is simply to be prepared for what you're getting into. You don't have to play your class perfectly, but when I'm in a random group of four other dudes, I at least expect the other people to be competent. DPS is one thing, as long as you're doing something, I don't care if I can judge/holy shock and exo spam and beat the guy. As long as he's not getting us killed, I don't care. Tanks and healers are something else. Know the fights and be able to hold aggro on at least one mob is all that's required of a tank, and that's not too much to ask.....is it?
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8615
The best way to deal with getting harassed online is to ignore it and don't let it bother you.

I mean, if you're getting stressed about some random calling you bad names in an online game, you have a rough life ahead of you. Be confident in yourself and don't let stuff like this drag you down.
90 Dwarf Paladin
3485
07/20/2012 11:03 AMPosted by Simca
Not so much that it's more difficult, or that the focus is on the receiver. I think most people are focusing on the receiver because it's the one thing you, the individual, have control of.


The person making the comments doesn't have control over themselves? They are a part of the equation, and a part of the community. We're not talking about a force of nature like the weather that we have to just accept and cope with. The person making the comments has just as much control to modify the situation as the person receiving the comments.
90 Human Mage
13530
07/20/2012 03:09 PMPosted by Specialneeds
I think the point he was making is simply to be prepared for what you're getting into.


It's a hobby, and a video game. A lot of people may not realize you have to do homework to play a video game. And it's also a mmo, where you should look to the community, the online community for help first when it comes to most of the basics and not have to go to a website like EJ where new players or new raiders could be confused by the information.
85 Undead Priest
0
This thread is an interesting contrast of values.

07/20/2012 03:59 PMPosted by Mcdrunk
The person making the comments doesn't have control over themselves?


You're misunderstanding.

An individual can control their behavior, that is their ability to resist becoming offended. They cannot control the behavior of others who wish to offend them. While the other side could also change themselves, keep in mind the aggressors do not perceive their behavior as a problem and have no real incentive to change, so are unlikely to do so.
Edited by Nixx on 7/20/2012 4:22 PM PDT
90 Dwarf Paladin
3485
This thread is an interesting contrast of values.

The person making the comments doesn't have control over themselves?


You're misunderstanding.

An individual can control their behavior, that is their ability to resist becoming offended. They cannot control the behavior of others who wish to offend them. While the other side could also change themselves, keep in mind the aggressors do not perceive their behavior as a problem and have no real incentive to change, so are unlikely to do so.


I agree about the contrast of values, that is actually what I am exploring. I understand the argument, I not being deliberately obtuse, I am trying to get at what seems to be an unconscious bias.

First, is the aggressor trying to offend or are they 'kidding around' and feel the recipient is being overly sensitive? I've been in that position where what I thought was an innocent comment got a very bad reaction.

Second, do you think the recipient thinks their behavior is a problem or do they feel they are getting appropriately offended by the comment?

Let's turn your comment the other way. Since we cannot control the behavior of others we cannot control what offends other people. But we can mitigate the possibility by what we say to others.

The bias I mentioned is the automatic, default, knee jerk reaction to these discussions that the only issue is how the recipient responds, not the actions of the aggressor. Both parties are in control of themselves and have no control over the other, yet only one is being asked to change their behavior.

Another thing I notice in those reactions is no one thinks outside their own mindset. Basically they are thinking, "That isn't offensive to me, therefore it should be offensive to no one." I am not sure how reasonable that kind of thinking is.
90 Night Elf Hunter
6585


Yes and no. The fault in a situation like this goes both ways but it is on a separate scale. It is 100% the fault of the giver that something "vile" was said but it is 100% the fault of the receiver for taking offense, they aren't comparable or relate-able in any way other than they happened at the same time.


It just seems like most of the focus is on the receiver and almost none on the giver. It's easy for people to say "don't get offended" to one group but when it is suggested to also say to the other group "don't be a tool online" everyone throws up their hands and say it's the internet, nothing can be done. Just seems hypocritical to me.

Is not being a tool that much more difficult then not being offended?


This is really the point, isn't it....and you said it well.

The abusers always want to cry out for their right to say whatever, however they want.
The extreme abusers need to feel important, so ripping other people down serves their purpose well. THEIR rights are supreme and they play the game as though no one else matters but them.

They are clueless to the rights of anyone else in the game. They do not recognize the needs, or wants of anyone but themselves. If you are not their "buddy" and not in the game to lift THEM higher and fluff up THEIR egos, you don't even get acknowledged as a person behind a toon.

Some of the responses (on this page) just make me ill. There are people who are so self oriented that, for them, this barely rates as an MMO, since they treat other players like they are NPC who exist just to make the abusers happy and fullfilled.

EVERYONE in this game has rights, but there has always been an overriding acknowledgement that perspective and treating people with respect trumps most other "rules" in the game. That is basically because a toxic community is the result of players who use their personal issues and game status to make up for what is lacking in their real lives and place far too much self-value on their status, or power in a game. This is almost ALWAYS going to result in abuse of others and the denial of their rights to just play a game that is suppose to be entertainment, fun and not a life choice.

The link posted previosly in this thread says it much better than I can and I hope Blizz considers it's message. It is so powerful, IMO, that I am reposting it here:

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment

It is encouraging to see that others, on this net that we all use, are starting to seriously consider these issues and look at possible ways to deal with them.

Nothing positive works unless the community is willing to participate and report, report, report abusers in game. Blizz has a part to play too and I do not think they can continue to ignore something that is causing people to leave and new players to walk away due to the horrible mistreatment in the game and the terrible reputation that WOW is getting as a result.

I would like to know if any of the blues have checked out the link above and what their thoughts are on the content.

Just one more thought:
I can't help but crack up when someone uses the "thin skin" argument to blame vitims of abuse and blindly overlooks the "thin skin" of the abuser who gets so annoyed over the imperfections of players that they self justify their rage rants and random acts of nastiness that take place every day here. Really funny when you start to really think about WHO is really thin skinned.

This game is made up of many imperfect people from many, many different walks and abilities and ages. IMO, it is the abusers who ,"if they cannot stand the heat" of expected tolerance of others, should "stay out of the kitchen", rather than expecting people to treat this game as a life, or death matter that justifies paying to be abused by others.

How people twist that around, in their heads, into ANY kind of justification to abuse people defies every logic that defines us as civilized.
Edited by Kyraz on 7/21/2012 3:01 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Hunter
6585
07/20/2012 10:31 AMPosted by Nixx


But it happens all the time.


Doesn't contradict my statement.


....as your original post and this response do not justify abusing other people either, which is what this thread is actually about.
83 Gnome Mage
5070
Douches, retards, noobs, "you all suck" ... how many WoW given to human kind. It seems during last years I've seen much more rude words to each other than during 40 years of my life.

For myself I decided that there some kind of people, lets call them "!@#$ spreaders", who poisoning life to every person they touching (worldwide problem). And of course such people poisoning WoW atmosphere - frequently I'm overwhelmed after 2-4 months of gaming and 6 month of no-WoW able to help to play again.

There must be something, maybe not reporting harassment but mark player as "rude", and to make their life harder. For example make it BoA and prevent them from joining your groups. Also can be "helpful" mark (sort of player reputation, maybe even visible for everyone).

Nothing bad about losing such "subscribers" - you can save much more.
85 Blood Elf Hunter
8415
I have played RIFT, Aion, and AoC for a little bit. I have played Guild Wars extensively, SWTOR since it's release, and Guild Wars 2 betas. In all of that experience it is an exception to come across someone rude. I expect a rude remark here and there because we all have our bad days. But the WoW community in general keeps going down hill. If I am in a PvE group or a BG and I don't hear a rude remark, I think I am in the Twilight Zone. Now I personally don't get offended by such remarks. But it has become annoying to the point where it is no longer fun to play the game and I can't support a game with such a player base. Because someone will assume, no, this is not the sole reason for cancelling my subscription, but it does play a large part. Why play a game that is no longer fun? And with a MMORPG the player base is kind of important.
90 Blood Elf Mage
15565
07/18/2012 07:06 PMPosted by Larwood
Most people play the game to have fun not carry the new guy.
Might just be me, but I have no problem "carrying" people if they are at least polite. Or if they just hit 85 and are trying to gear up for PvE or PvP. Not claiming I am the best, but I am claiming I can carrying some dps through a random five man and maybe one or two in bgs.... Other team depending of course.
85 Gnome Mage
4690
Dear op,

please explain how would you deal with people who refuse to do the following in bgs, despite being told a couple of times:

1. fight on roads
2. fighting a good 45 yards (and above) from node
3. leaving a node unprotected
4. simply doing what they want and ignoring bg objectives


1. Take a moment to realise that you're in an unrated BG, meaning that there is no value to the scenario aside from killing other players with a small reward of points at the end. Give instruction and ideas, then do not bring the issue up again (doubly so if there is hostility). If they take the advice, hey, good for them. If they don't, take solace in the fact that you will be able to queue for another BG, and the sun will rise tomorrow morning.
2. See Above.
3. See Above
4. See Above.
1 Tauren Priest
0
07/18/2012 04:34 PMPosted by Leothiel
When anyone criticizes another player without offering any improvement, they are just as being guilty of being a baddie as the low DPSer who has ignored tips on how to improve.

^ this, and i've NEVER had someone get mad at me for trying to help them out, or have had someone ignore what i've said.
i heal and dps, so if i see someone who is having trouble or could do better, then i try to guide them in the right direction and they are usually grateful for what i say.

better idea.
Dont get your feelings hurt by what some random jabroni says online.

heaven forbid we have sympathetic, nice people on detheroc..

it isn't logical to be hurt from what some person says online, sure, but it doesn't make it right and ignoring a problem won't make a bully stop bullying.

why should they have to suck it up and move on, but the person causing this is perfectly acceptable? they think it's okay to do, because you are busy "not getting your feelings hurt," instead of saying it how it is:
calling people names and insulting them isn't going to solve anything. being an actual human being and helping someone out, will.

i don't see the point in being an obnoxious jerk to someone... online or not. i don't let people act like that if they are with me, and i at least try to be kind.

why is that so hard to do?
90 Dwarf Warrior
6510
Ashtón, thank you for posting your thoughts about how to increase positivity in a community driven environment. There are indeed countless ways to be far more constructive when responding to other players and your highlighted example is fantastic (though I had to remove the inappropriate language).

When you boil it down, we’re all the same. Who sits in front of the keyboard doesn’t matter; you have the same passion as the next player: You love to play World of Warcraft! Scrub away the frivolous things and you now have a foundation for a mindset that will assuredly promote and foster a fun, interactive, and positive gaming experience. We were all beginners at one point. We all had to learn how to play through discovery, trial and error, and most importantly, through the advice shared by others we played with.

Speaking to a friend of mine the other day, I was paid one of the kindest compliments I’ve received in a long while. She said to me, “You give such great advice, I love talking to you.” I can’t honestly say that any of my advice is all that great, but her words meant a lot to me. And apparently, my words to her mean a lot, too. It’s a trade and through simple acts of sharing advice and thoughts based upon our own experiences, we’re able to make someone feel valuable, cared for, and important. The question now becomes, why wouldn’t you want to make someone’s day by being helpful or encouraging?

It is certainly important that we provide everyone with the necessary tools to handle in-game concerns such as inappropriate language and harassment, that’s a given. But it has been and will always be up to us as players to walk-the-talk of building and maintaining a positive community. Not to be too corny, but it’s like the film, Pay It Forward. Get enough people doing little things to be helpful and positive, and voila! Let the domino effect commence.


That's a wonderful sentiment and very true, but until you start handing out bans and deleting accounts for this kind of hateful and intentionally destructive behavior as the OP alluded to, it's not going anywhere.

Sorry, but if you're nice to a bully they'll just see it as weakness and do it even worse to the next person to get the reaction they wanted from you.

Being a positive member of the community is great, but somebody who is bent on ruining the game for others will continue to do so until it becomes impossible for them to log in.

Consequences must be swift and severe. We can only do so much on our end, we'd like to see some more action from you guys on yours. Honestly it feels like you guys are just passing the buck off to us and saying "Here, you deal with it", and almost like you're blaming the victims because they haven't been "nice" enough to the people that have been tormenting them.

That's kind of...well...wrong.
Edited by Dunfoyle on 7/27/2012 6:00 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Banning players is bad for business. They can't do it.
on harassment: you can just ignore and report them in a ticket if it is constant and bypassing. they only ban if it is extreme and the constant reprimand's aren't changing the behavior.
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