Racial Combat Techniques

90 Orc Warrior
10290
Horde

Tauren
To be honest, these guys are mostly cannon fodder.


It would appear that you don't know what "cannon-fodder" means.


Indeed. In WC3 they weren't cannon fodder in the least.....they were walking breathing tanks.

Two of them could easily kill hero units, especially when blood lusted.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
07/21/2012 02:00 AMPosted by Lochnar
Lord of the Clans takes a giant dump on that one.


You mean Thrall and his feats?
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
07/21/2012 02:42 AMPosted by Arkturas
Lord of the Clans takes a giant dump on that one.


You mean Thrall and his feats?


Other orcs as well.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
Then I would raise some additional points for consideration.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Blood_Curse

So, they enjoyed the advantages of the Blood Curse right up until WC3. If we take this at face value. It's not really important though, except in that it's one course for Blizzard to clarify along.

That the orcs were supercharged until Mannoroth was slain, and now are diminished to far less than the terrifying heights of powers they enjoyed during the first and second war.
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90 Orc Warrior
10290
That the orcs were supercharged until Mannoroth was slain, and now are diminished to far less than the terrifying heights of powers they enjoyed during the first and second war.


Doomhammer never drank Mannaroth's blood.......and was able to leave dents in Lothar's breastplate with his fists.

Thrall never drank Mannaroth's blood.....and was able to choke Sergeant (who was a rather large and powerful man in his own right) through the metal gorget around his neck.....at 12 years old.

Garrosh has never drank Mannaroth's blood either......and was able pick a full grown orc clad in plate armor by the throat with one hand and walk around with him.

It's simply isn't that easy to hand wave. Even in Rise of the Horde Orcs were noted for their phenomenol strength.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
Only the chiefs of the clans drank the blood, I thought.

Everyone was effected.
Edited by Arkturas on 7/21/2012 3:27 AM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
10290
Only the chiefs of the clans drank the blood, I thought.

Everyone was effected.


Garrosh is a Mag'har. They weren't affected at all.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
He is also a single individual, of a special line. As is Saurfang the younger.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5780
07/21/2012 04:39 AMPosted by Arkturas
He is also a single individual, of a special line. As is Saurfang the younger.


Do you have a point?
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100 Dwarf Warrior
19720
All these races are divided into multiple clans/tribes/nations etc. You probably can't speak about each race having a singular fighting style.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
07/21/2012 05:22 AMPosted by Velarin
Do you have a point?


That perhaps using him as an example of orcish norms would be like using Varian as an example of human norms?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5780
Do you have a point?


That perhaps using him as an example of orcish norms would be like using Varian as an example of human norms?


Varian isn't strong because his father was strong, and neither is Garrosh. Sure, genetics play some part, but Garrosh and his family aren't mutants.

In fact, Garrosh should be an example of what an Orcs baseline strength is, as he was never affected by the blood.
Edited by Velarin on 7/21/2012 7:20 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
And thus the same could be said of Varian, thus equating the two race's baseline strength.
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Unfortunately, I think it should have stayed the way it was in WC1.


Actually, although the orcs' primary weakness was described in the Warcraft 1 manual as being a lack of organization and only sporadic assaults,

With the introduction of Blackhand (who is always and everywhere described as cunning, capable, and powerful), the orcs begin to show much more organization.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Chronicles_of_the_War_in_Azeroth

584

"King Llane has found that the Orcs, though incredibly strong and vicious, were seldom well-trained in combat, and always disorganized. This has been the key to holding them at bay, and is the weakness he hopes to exploit in the future."

593

"Stirrings of war now come from the swamps. The attacks upon our settlements, once scattered and poorly-executed, have become more organized. The King has found it necessary to send footmen and archers to protect settlements along the Borderlands. Rumors of the rising of a great Orcish War Chief have been heard about the land. He is heard to be a harsh leader who has gathered the feuding Orcs under one banner. King Llane’s scouts and spies have found him to be as cunning as he is bloodthirsty. This foul creature’s name is Blackhand, and his control of the Orcish hordes could spell doom for Azeroth."

Of course, this was eventually retconned with Aaron Rosenberg who made corrupted orcs into mindless savages with no brain for tactics in the novel Tides of Darkness.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
10960
Humans.
I would imagine they employ a very Spartan/Roman type fighting stile


This one gave me a laughing fit. About the only thing the Spartans and the Romans had in common was that they both wore swords and sandals.

Much of how the Romans handled combat was their own invention. Their key innovation was army organizaton from the legion down to the 100 man century (hence the word "centurion"). It manifested on the field as their unique form of phalanx and sheild wall fighting which was only made possible by their methods of group training. The Spartans for all their discipline fought much like the other Greeks did... only they were for the most part better at it than most of the Greek city states.

But despite their iron discipline, Athens beat the pants off of them every time they squared off.
Edited by Drahliana on 7/21/2012 8:01 AM PDT
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100 Human Warrior
17420
Horde

Tauren
To be honest, these guys are mostly cannon fodder.


It would appear that you don't know what "cannon-fodder" means.


Fine, sitting ducks. Moving targets. Red shirts.

They wait around all day going about whatever waiting for someone to tack a pot shot at them. The almost never do anything proactive until someone takes a swipe at them and even then they hold back. There preemptive strikes are few and far between and the most preparation they have done in cata is build a wooden wall.

The poor lumps are destined to be victims until they get a clue.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5780
07/21/2012 07:24 AMPosted by Arkturas
And thus the same could be said of Varian, thus equating the two race's baseline strength.


Not really. Varian fought as a gladiator for years, and is the champion of Lo'gosh. Garrosh wasn't raised any differently from any other Mag'har, and probably had an easier time of it then most Orcs.
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100 Human Warrior
17420
This one gave me a laughing fit. About the only thing the Spartans and the Romans had in common was that they both wore swords and sandals.


Because / can mean or, and or mixed. As in a mix of Spartan and Roman stile.

and there is fact that they both had a base of heavily armored foot solders that stood in a tight shield-to-shield formation with a heavy weapon and a side arm. Only with footmen their side arm can convert to a "heavy weapon" because it can be used two handed as well as one handed.

Much of how the Romans handled combat was their own invention. Their key innovation was army organizaton from the legion down to the 100 man century (hence the word "centurion"). It manifested on the field as their unique form of phalanx and sheild wall fighting which was only made possible by their methods of group training. The Spartans for all their discipline fought much like the other Greeks did... only they were for the most part better at it than most of the Greek city states.


This is a common misconception. The Romans actually did not invent allot of their tools of war but captured and learned things from their enemies and conquered lands. The real innovation of the Romans was to pick up these tools and techniques and adapt them to better suit their needs. It's kinda like saying Blizzard invented MMOs.
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This one gave me a laughing fit. About the only thing the Spartans and the Romans had in common was that they both wore swords and sandals.

Much of how the Romans handled combat was their own invention. Their key innovation was army organizaton from the legion down to the 100 man century (hence the word "centurion"). It manifested on the field as their unique form of phalanx and sheild wall fighting which was only made possible by their methods of group training. The Spartans for all their discipline fought much like the other Greeks did... only they were for the most part better at it than most of the Greek city states.

But despite their iron discipline, Athens beat the pants off of them every time they squared off.


Actually, Athens hid behind their walls in the Peloponnesian Wars and suffered a great plague as a result of the fact that they were periodically besieged by Spartans burning their crops.

The Athenians, to my understanding, actually never won a direct phalanx-to-phalanx engagement versus a force of Spartans. They relied on diplomacy and their navy to reach strategic objectives. The Spartans were always the premier land power of Ancient Greece.

If you're thinking of an army that defeated the Spartans in a direct engagement, perhaps you're thinking of the Sacred Band of Thebes, which was actually organized in much the same way as the Spartan military, down to the last brotherly-loving detail.

The Romans used a Phalanx, and it was different, that is true, from the Greeks, but fundamentally a similar construction. There's actually a fabulous discussion on this in a book by John Keegan about the history of ancient warfare, and the indication is that the Roman legion was superior to the Greek phalanx to the effect that it afforded them greater mobility in their smaller units. But in my own estimation, it was a tightly compacted group of men, shields drawn over their comrades, bristling with spears (prior to the introduction of the Gladius, that is). The proto-legion of the early Roman army probably would have been very similar to its Greek counterpart, especially considering their proximity and cultural origins to the Etruscans of Italy, a Greek colony.

But if it makes you feel any better, the Romans consistently lost to the Persians (the Parthian empire), whereas the Greeks held off an invasion of Greece.

Oh, and the Macedonian phalanx, which was derived from the Greek phalanx, conquered not just Persia but the entire mid-east, something the Romans could never do (because mid-east combat tactics were superior until the Byzantines came along).
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
Ways Blizz can justify equal might for both factions:

1) Tone down the strength of the orcs via Blood curse explanation.

2) Keep them lower on the technology totem pole. Keep wearing that leather and chain ensemble, we'll drag in the Mortar teams with Frangible rounds.

3) State how outnumbered they are by the Alliance.

They really are not lacking for options.
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