TSM - Auctioning

55 Gnome Death Knight
90
Why is this addon allowed? It's basically botting even though the user presses a button.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
15475
How is it botting?
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
0
?

It does the same thing for the AH that DBM does for raiding. Which I assume you use, being H:8/8 and all.
Edited by Verelyse on 7/27/2012 6:50 PM PDT
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55 Gnome Death Knight
90
07/27/2012 06:47 PMPosted by Higeki
How is it botting?


It automatically undercuts everyone's auctions as soon as they are posted without any thought.

?

It does the same thing for the AH that DBM does for raiding. Which I assume you use, being H:8/8 and all.


Quite different, DBM doesn't play the game for you whilst you watch TV or read a book.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
0
07/27/2012 06:56 PMPosted by Flottley
Quite different, DBM doesn't play the game for you whilst you watch TV or read a book.

I forgot, you also need GTFO for that.

07/27/2012 06:56 PMPosted by Flottley
It automatically undercuts everyone's auctions as soon as they are posted without any thought.

Only if you're sitting at your computer, constantly scanning for undercuts and reposting. Which you can do with most any AH addon, TSM just streamlines it. Which is basically a requirement for the glyph market.

Which is a complete debacle, just tossing that out there Blizzard.

Either way, it wouldn't be necessary at all if the default AH UI wasn't so absolutely atrocious.
Edited by Verelyse on 7/27/2012 7:00 PM PDT
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55 Gnome Death Knight
90
07/27/2012 06:56 PMPosted by Flottley
It automatically undercuts everyone's auctions as soon as they are posted without any thought.

Only if you're sitting at your computer, constantly scanning for undercuts and reposting. Which you can do with most any AH addon, TSM just streamlines it. Which is basically a requirement for the glyph market.

Which is a complete debacle, just tossing that out there Blizzard.

Either way, it wouldn't be necessary at all if the default AH UI wasn't so absolutely atrocious.[/quote]

I don't agree that any addon is a requirement for any profession, all you are saying is that you are going to sit there and mindlessly undercut anyone that is going to post a glyph to sell, your glyphs don't have to be the cheapest 24/7. Although I have no objection to you undercutting people, I do object to people using an addon that does this process automatically. IMO it is botting or very close to it.

I do agree that the default AH UI is terrible but an addon like "TSM - Auctioning" is going a bit far and gives people that use it an unfair advantage.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
0
I just meant good luck handling 350+ different glyphs without something like TSM to help sort and post them all, not that you have to camp glyphs to be successful at them (sorry for the ambiguity there).

Most people I've read about who are deep into the glyph market only relist 3-4 times in a day.

07/27/2012 07:44 PMPosted by Flottley
I do agree that the default AH UI is terrible but an addon like "TSM - Auctioning" is going a bit far and gives people that use it an unfair advantage.

The advantage is people who sit and camp the AH for hours, which isn't something you could eliminate by disabling TSM. It just happens that most of the people who do this use TSM, the addon isn't at fault.

What I meant earlier is that if you're going to AH camp, you can do it almost as easily just with auctionator.

And I assume with many other similar addons.
Edited by Verelyse on 7/27/2012 8:43 PM PDT
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55 Gnome Death Knight
90
Yea, I totally agree the addon isn't at fault and just to be clear the abuse of "Auctioning" is the only part of TSM I have a gripe with because it can be abused to the point where people are basically botting and reposting stuff seconds after someone else does.

The person that has come to my attention camps the AH practically all day and night reposting one of each of the items he has to sell and shuts out anyone that wants to sell something. Now that is all ok to do, it's part of the game but using the addon gives him and unfair advantage because all he does is press one button without any thought and it cancels and relists all of his auctions. Something like Auctionator should probably be the limit where it does a better job than the Blizz UI, but doesn't mass repost and cancel, thus automating the process.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
5695
TSM, Auctioneer, Auctionator, AuctionLite, etc., you name the auction house add-on and they all require a hardware prompt for each and every posting and cancellation. This is a requirement of Blizzard's AH API to prevent just what you are talking about. You cannot push one button in any AH add-on and automatically cancel and repost all your items. For instance, it takes the same number of steps to cancel an item in Auctionator as it does in TSM (have the add-on scan for undercuts and then press the cancel button for every item, etc.). Now, if you suspect someone of botting, that's an entirely different issue; please report them with a ticket to Blizzard. I hate AH botters as much as the next person.
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55 Gnome Death Knight
90
I first suspected he was botting and i've reprted him so time will tell if that is the case. I'm not sure if he is botting or simply using an addon but when I spoke to the GM he informed me that addons can do what he is doing which in their veiw, is legit. I personally think it gives an unfair advantage. Addons like this will make a joke of the Black Market AH in MoP if people can mindlessly spam a button to out bid people buying stuff.
Edited by Flottley on 7/27/2012 10:30 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
17870
07/27/2012 10:29 PMPosted by Flottley
I personally think it gives an unfair advantage. Addons like this will make a joke of the Black Market AH in MoP if people can mindlessly spam a button to out bid people buying stuff.


If they're willing to camp there and constantly click their button and bid higher than you constantly, that is. They're still going to be, you know, paying the money.

If you want them to not bid on it? Post a higher bid. You can, you know, do that. If they're willing to outbid you? Then they're going to get the item, and there's not really much you can do to stop it.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8250
You have your eyes on the wrong target... AH bots have existed long before TSM existed. Addons like TSM are fine, they just allow players to compete with the bots to some degree. If they didn't exist, that would just be even better news for real botters.

However, a part of me does wish blizzard would do something aboutthe canceling & undercutting... something to make it more difficult. Adding a hard or soft limit to how many auctions you can cancel before it starts costing you gold, something. IMO, it's the ability to constantly cancel and post that enables bots (and AH campers) more than anything.
Edited by Hershe on 7/27/2012 11:04 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
15475
I use TSM to keep track of crafting. I use auctionator and my own brain to post so I know my servers economy. If I did so blindly, I wouldn't know the relative value of practically everything.

I don't cancel. If I'm undercut I just throw another one up. Sometimes the undercut items sell anyway and I've got plenty of stock.

I'll play the AH hardcore after a patch but right now there doesn't seem much point. It sounds like you've got a bot rather than a goblin like myself. I actually need to eat, sleep and take care of my family. Bots don't.
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55 Gnome Death Knight
90

If they're willing to camp there and constantly click their button and bid higher than you constantly, that is. They're still going to be, you know, paying the money.

If you want them to not bid on it? Post a higher bid. You can, you know, do that. If they're willing to outbid you? Then they're going to get the item, and there's not really much you can do to stop it.


That's fine if they're going to camp the AH and out bid on any other bid to get the item, more power to them if they are willing to put the effort in. I have a problem with people using a third party add on to get an advantage over most other (anyone not using the most advanced add on) people to achieve the desired result by minimizing the time or effort it takes to place a bid. If Blizz wanted this type of funtion I'm sure they would add it themselves.

You have your eyes on the wrong target... AH bots have existed long before TSM existed. Addons like TSM are fine, they just allow players to compete with the bots to some degree. If they didn't exist, that would just be even better news for real botters.

However, a part of me does wish blizzard would do something aboutthe canceling & undercutting... something to make it more difficult. Adding a hard or soft limit to how many auctions you can cancel before it starts costing you gold, something. IMO, it's the ability to constantly cancel and post that enables bots (and AH campers) more than anything.


Well that's the thing, these add ons basically do the same thing as a bot and can be used to basically control the AH to point where auctions can be undercut within seconds thus giving others absolutely no chance which I don't see as even remotely fair.

And yea, your idea is pretty good of an increasing cost if you repost XX amount of times.
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55 Gnome Death Knight
90
07/28/2012 12:07 AMPosted by Higeki
It sounds like you've got a bot rather than a goblin like myself. I actually need to eat, sleep and take care of my family. Bots don't.


Yea I tend to agree from what I've seen. TBH with what i've seen in the last few months regarding duped items and the amount of gold selling on my server I have very little faith in Blizzards policing of this type of thing.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8250
07/28/2012 12:15 AMPosted by Flottley
That's fine if they're going to camp the AH and out bid on any other bid to get the item, more power to them if they are willing to put the effort in. I have a problem with people using a third party add on to get an advantage over most other (anyone not using the most advanced add on) people to achieve the desired result by minimizing the time or effort it takes to place a bid. If Blizz wanted this type of funtion I'm sure they would add it themselves.


There's all sorts of functions that they wanted (or at least wanted to allow), but that they didn't directly implement themselves. That's why they built the API as they did. If they didn't want something, they would break it or remove/modify the API that enables it.

They changed the auction house API when cataclysm was released. Prior to that time, you didn't even need a hardware event in order to post or cancel... the predecessor to TSM was designed to be fully 100% automated, scanning and posting on its own in a non-stop loop.

Shortly after that, blizzard broke it and required a hardware event for every post and cancel. At that point, TSM's predicessor's author quit playing and the new author made TSM work with the new hardware-event limits. Blizzard could have made any other given number of changes... but they didn't.

07/28/2012 12:15 AMPosted by Flottley
Well that's the thing, these add ons basically do the same thing as a bot and can be used to basically control the AH to point where auctions can be undercut within seconds thus giving others absolutely no chance which I don't see as even remotely fair.


Better than a world where the only one's who have any form of automation are the non-player bots. At least with these addons, anyone who wants to have them, can have them, free on a level playing field. The only thing that's not level is the time people have available to sit there and click with 1 copper undercuts. IMO, that's what needs to stop. A 1c undercut isn't competing on price, it's cutting to the front of the line (and I say this as someone who does it all the time... it's just the name of the game at this point).
Edited by Hershe on 7/28/2012 12:38 AM PDT
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TSM is an absolute godsend for posting and has absolutely no issues there (it's not mindless since you have to define min and max thresholds -- if you really do just mindlessly undercut ANYONE, regardless of the price, you are going to get screwed).

The real issue is that the way WoW is currently set up, there is a huge incentive to just cancel and re-undercut people (or not even cancel, but just re-undercut) at basically no loss to the undercutter and with basically no gain to the buyer (since usually people undercut by a negligible amount). How to fix this issue -- well, that's a whole other story.
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90 Draenei Shaman
12255
I dont worry too much about the AH "bots" if you have a product that is in high demand it really should sell

Selling flasks and mats for feasts on raid nights, daily transmutes early in the morning when alot of people are doing their crafting before work/school. A handful of popular gem cuts and you should not have to worry about them too much.

I have never had any luck selling glyphs, maybe im not competitive enough. Or its because its a one time buy.
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grunching

If TSM gets banned for being "too much like botting," then they would also have to ban writing macros. Because, after all, you can make some pretty complicated macros that just required the press of one button to do all sorts of things, like mill or prospect huge amounts of varying herbs or ore.

07/27/2012 08:53 PMPosted by Flottley
The person that has come to my attention camps the AH practically all day and night reposting one of each of the items he has to sell and shuts out anyone that wants to sell something. Now that is all ok to do, it's part of the game but using the addon gives him and unfair advantage because all he does is press one button without any thought and it cancels and relists all of his auctions. Something like Auctionator should probably be the limit where it does a better job than the Blizz UI, but doesn't mass repost and cancel, thus automating the process.


My server actually has an issue with auction house bots. Let me tell you what it looks like:

The "players" in question are online 40-60 hours straight, with only a one to two hour break in between these days online. They repost auctions every 3-6 minutes, all day, every day. They only cancel once or twice a day, so they leave a trail of *when* they've reposted and you can see how little time is between them posting.

Now, they could be doing this with or without TSM, but if they are botting, it really doesn't matter.

If you are merely competing against someone who is using TSM, and you are not using TSM, you have no one to blame but your own self. If you're fine with your competitor having an enormous advantage over you, one that you can easily and legally (within the terms of the game) acquire, yeah, you're kinda dumb.
Edited by Trixxis on 7/28/2012 9:53 AM PDT
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