Discussion: 10, 20, 25, & 40 Man Raids

100 Night Elf Rogue
Which raid did you find more enjoyable? How did they affect guild dynamics? General thoughts on any of them?

10 mans - great if you have a close group of friends. Problem is that if 1 person takes off, you typically have a larger set back. Any major guild drama often results in needing to replenish the ranks or guild being done. Fights are adequately set up to compensate for fewer ppl's rng for messing up, but fights drag on a bit

20 mans - imo the best balanced. The bosses health and length of fights seem to scale nicely with 20 ppl. Healthy balance between classes and ppl in raid/guild.

25 mans - something has always seemed off on the balance. Allows for a couple players to not be perfect on execution or get a carry or 2 in safely. Guild dynamic tends to be similar to 20 mans. However, in todays wow, filling a 25 man is a bit more shakey on occassion, but we aren't a high pop world with a queue anymore.

40 mans - holy cow - if there wasn't drama, then you weren't in high enough progression it seemed. So many people gave rise to so many cliques. If you weren't present, you could actually be totally forgotten. Allowed for multiple ppl to get carried through or do horrible. Especially back when the originality of fights and their mechanics were so high, it was a recipe for a tough progression road. Hard to keep that many ppl happy, and on the same page. However, it promoted great class unity, since you had to work with the other 5 members of the same class to pull off the victory (yes before we had shamans and dks).

In short, 20 mans were nice, 40 mans were lolz worthy, but I do miss the class unity and being able to see 5 ppl dead and it being ok and not looking like a wipe.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
I remember rogue get togethers to go solo stuff to make money back in the 40 man raids.

However, I also remember before joining evolution I was in edge of valor (I think was the name). They had about 20 veterans in the guild, and we were moving into progression for BWL. They change the loot policy so that if you were a vet rank you had dibs over all rag, and bwl loot. Yes they were in the guild a bit longer, but we are only talking 2 months tops.

We finished up ony after MC, and I won my hood (was so awesome). They even tried to strong arm the hood to another rogue, but considering it was the only piece of loot i would get for awhile with the new loot system, I went for it. Had to go all in with my dkp too!

Now keeping in mind, about 20 vets, 20 members, and 10 inititates, the next week of raiding was interesting as you could imagine if you tell half the guild they can't get loot even though they have the dkp. Most members didn't show up, and the inititaes left. By the following week the guild was done, and ppl split to go to evolution, ea, skulls and tfs (might have been just after the 1st explosion). Just an interesting story from back in the day about 40 mans.
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100 Night Elf Priest
40 man raids, to me, felt really epic. Practical, viable long term, not so much. Bosses like level 60 Thaddius were especially hard with that many people. Agreed, lots of fun in class channels back then.

25 man raids seemed like a sweet spot. Big enough to still feel epic, but fewer people to screw up. Still getting the Immortal title with 25 people was anything but easy.

10 man raids opened up interesting possibilities. Back in Wrath, my guild and I think more than a few other 25 man raiding guilds had a second 10 man group made up of the better players who would be a bit ahead of the main group. Notice how I avoided saying the word "elite" ? :)
But I was also doing 10 man raids with groups of friends, including some friends who were late night players (and parents) so even though they were great players, they couldn't be in a regular raiding guild. Autorun while half asleep in a raid instance was a good recipe for hilarity.
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90 Night Elf Druid
I think my favorite raids will forever be the 40 mans, which is probably because I enjoyed playing the game the most during that time.

Most of my 40 man raiding came with The Final Sanctum (until the final collapse before BC) and Requiem of the Fallen/Requiem (up through the mid-BC breakup). I met a lot of really good people who I've kept in touch with throughout expansions in those two guilds.

I always thought the 40 man bosses were the most difficult/most epic, but most of that is also because many bosses these days (with the exception of heroics, which I'll revisit) are simply too easy especially considering the nerfs they keep adding every 2-3 weeks, which is becoming seemingly more popular. For example, anyone who has done Chromaggus in the real 40 man days knows that the fight required instances of LoSing, multiple-dispelling (magic, poison, disease, curses, and the use of an item), and it was different every week (color combinations)! Certain bosses required items (Ony Cloak anyone?) or specific resists (Huhuran in AQ40) in order to survive. Certain bosses had specific mechanics (mind-control tanking Razuvious in Naxx with his adds, managing the teleporting Twin Emperors, the Heigan dance).

Now, heroics are certainly challenging; I won't deny that. But why does Blizzard feel like they need heroic modes (aside from OMG let ALL the people see content). Half the time they're nerfing this content anyways (DS 5% nerfs every 2-3 weeks). The heroics start to not feel so heroic. And really, when you have top guilds knocking down content within a month of release (typically top guilds took much longer back in the 40 man days), those fights again do not feel so heroic.

Where are the resist fights now? Where are the fights that make having a certain item for the entire raid a necessity? Why haven't I been able to dance around the floor during an encounter? I know many people found things like the resist fights gimmicky and Blizzard strongly stated their dislike of those types of fights going forward, I can't help but feel like it made 40 man raiding some of the most challenging and most fun raids.
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100 Human Mage
So many people gave rise to so many cliques

I dont miss the cliques at all cause that was a good part of what was wrong with vanilla and it was still a problem in TBC. It never went away totally but at least it's not as bad as it was.

The 10 man demographic was a step in the right direction and was sorely needed. Sure the old 40 man raids felt epic but with how slow 25 man runs on most computers I cant imagine 40 mans today with how poorly this game is optimized for larger scale situations.

40 mans today would be total slideshows on anything but the best machines.
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