MOP Ally Raid Council.. Just An Idea

100 Night Elf Priest
15390
Since I doubt there is a guild that wouldnt want to see the server progress .. and there are alot of newish guilds that are bringing the heat.. I propose that we Ally guilds that are raiding form a council .. It would server several purposes..
1 a voice to voice strat sharing session..
2 A place to work out differences when they arise
3 A place for friendly competition ...(which will drive the realm)
4 etc

The idea is to have a forum or even a weekly guild hosted meeting with a representative from any guild that is interested to go over strats.. offer spots or available toons .. and basically take the resources we have and combine them to bettter the realm as a whole..

I would be willing to provide a neutral Mumble/Vent for the purpose

Its an idea pls feel free to offer input
Edited by Alyi on 7/29/2012 6:55 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9590
A nice thought Alyi, I myself have been fuming over a similar topic since I transferred to this server over a year ago. Galakrond is a perplexing place, the potential for its future PvE success is embedded in individual raiders not the guilds that they inhabit, save for the top 12 guilds whom sit at 6/8 Heroic. There is an odd assumption that lingers amongst the players here, and an odd complacency. Again, this is simply my observations.

I'll speak to the complacency first, I would say that there are a healthy amount of raiders will great potential for raiding success. How you want to define raiding success on this realm depends on the individual, and that is the core of the problem. I've met numerous raiders whom are often in large 300+ member guilds, guilds that contain numerous raiding teams, each with their own objectives. I try to speak to as many people as I can, getting to know the raiders of this realm is a vital task in attempting to understand its complexities, and the most common complaint I get towards the end of a tier is "my guild hit a wall on a boss and does not want to progress anymore, what should I do?"

Attributes, tendencies, values, goals that the guild leaders, the creators of these massive multi-group guilds tend to leak down to the other raid leaders. If your guild leader does not like face-in-the-wall progression, it is likely the rest will not like it either. Humans are social creatures, we will in most cases fall prey to the opinion of the masses. You are not progressing anymore on this boss because it is embedded in your guild's culture to not push its players hard for difficult fights. So what happens? These talented raiders then continue to raid with these players, even though their goals and values are different, and I continue to observe this over and over on this realm. They are loyal, but also complacent.

For this realm to take a step forward, raiders that want to raid the right way will have to break through their shell and find a guild that shares their values, I would suggest any of the top 12 guilds, or top 10 alliance side. What is the right way of raiding? This is a broad subject, but I will narrow it down to a few things:

- Pushing progression to its limits
- Understanding class optimization
- Understanding fight mechanics
- Understanding fight mechanics relative to class optimization
- The right attitude

In my opinion, there is no other way to raid. Anything that lacks what I listed above is a fruitless, pointless, shameful effort. Do not attempt to argue this point with me as I am severely stubborn in what raiding is supposed to look like, agree to disagree.

In short, break the mold and join a guild worth raiding with, there is no point to continue raiding with a lackluster raiding guild if they are not going to take it seriously and put forth their best in terms of raiding effort and optimization, if that is your goal that is, to do progression raiding.

Many of you speak to time consumption, you do not have time to study this game like a nerd. I will say this, the amount of time it takes you to read an article on the internet is about as much time it takes for you to learn about how to optimize your class and learn how to play effectively. Anytime I hear the "I don't have enough time to waste to be some wow nerd" line, I die a little inside due to how ignorant the comment is. It is as simple as googling "prot paladin 4.3" or "fire mage 4.3", etc.

Stop being complacent, expand your raiding horizons, expand your gameplay. Nothing in this game compares to a well earned heroic progression kill.

As to my other observation, there is an odd assumption on two things that is constantly regurgitated and it plagues the new and old players. The first is the assumption that you know everything. You could sit in trade chat on this realm and watch for 10 minutes and count the amount of times false advise is given to another player, particularly on optimization. I read this last night "two hand frost is the most optimal right now, I am pulling 30k on ultraxion". Not only is that blatantly wrong, 30k dps on ultraxion is pedestrian at best. Stupid is feeding into stupid on this realm, players with lackluster information see it as truth and teach other players more stupid, non-researched, theorycraft-lacking bull!@#$.

The second assumption is that the top guilds on this server are douchebags. I'll say this, I see more "primarch is full of douches" or "Team Elite is full of douches" comments then nicer ones. Anyone who has actually spoken with members from these two guilds would say that we are extremely helpful. Even before our guild, team elite, aegis, etc, were the top guilds, there is a constant hatred for the guilds who flourish on this realm (op, entropy, risen) and it is often unjustified. One trait that is prevalent in the majority of premiere raiding guilds on any server is ruthless honesty, do not mistake it for douchebaggery.
Edited by Renerock on 7/30/2012 4:58 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9590
As to your council, I like the idea in theory, however raiders and their guild leaders will have to change their ways if they wish to effectively raid and move this server forward. The sharing of ideas is great, however it needs to be combined with an internal effort, amongst individual raiders and guilds as a whole. A standard for raiding has to be met, it should not be acceptable if someone !@#$s up a mechanic over and over again, it should not be acceptable for a mage to wear strength gems, it should not be acceptable for someone to be missing enchants. The root of the problem is that these mistakes go either unnoticed or glazed over.

The power is ultimately in the guild leaders hands, if you want your guild to progress, first reflect on your ideals. "What do I want to gain from raiding?" "Am I optimized?" "Am I being honest to my raiders?". Lead by example and the rest will follow.

This server has all the potential in the world, the question is if it will continue to remain untapped? I can use my guild as an example, Primarch came to this server over a year ago with 8 members, of which only 3 remain. We carry 18 active raiders at this point in time, more then half of our guild consists of pure galakrond products that were developed into elite raiders over several months. This game is not that hard, any player barring a severed finger(s) can be at the very least decent at this game if they apply themselves just a tad bit.

dat language filt, let me reiterate

i have the largest renerock boehner right now


Language should not be filtered, the young of this country need to know words like "!@#$%"
Edited by Renerock on 7/30/2012 5:02 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Priest
15390
07/30/2012 10:03 AMPosted by Novacanex
This server has all the potential in the world
To an extent most players have potential with the correct guidance.


I would tend to aggree with much if not all that Ren has stated.. as for the quote, in my experience with leading guilds or a raid groups over the past several years, Ive found that people take "guidance" and either run with it.. find the sites to optimize their class/spec/rotation or they continue to look for more "guidance". There is a point at which you need to give a toon a task and let them figure it out on their own.. I remember a young hunter that began lk heroics severely lacking in dps and getting berated by his guild leader for it.. she said wtf man go get hit capped.. and he did.. and I ended up in some pretty competitive groups for the rest of the expansion and most of the current one.. Point is you can bring a horse to water but !@#$ they have to drink it on thier own. That is a hard lesson that any even half way serious guild will encounter at some point.

As for complacency.. It has two effects at the end of an expansion/beginning of a new one.. by the end of the expansion those that haven't satisfied their idea of progression because of the complacency of other members of the group/guild they are raiding with begin to look for the greener grass on the other side in another group/guild, which at the beginning of the new expansion leads to new groups/guilds and the loss of some that have been around for a while. (I would like to be named King of Run On Sentences for Galakrond) And I guess that this speaks to the idea of finding a spot in the top tenish progression guilds.

As for the idea its left open and still out there for discussion.. in my mind communication is the key, for every raid group/guild out there and for the realm.

***For those that have not had the chance to speak with anyone from the top guilds, I would say that the snob label some get couldnt be further from the truth. Although I cant say that I have contacts in every guild, the ones that I do have have been very friendly and if not whispered in the middle of a pull, will take the time to sincerely reply.
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100 Night Elf Priest
15390
07/29/2012 07:53 PMPosted by Renerock
Stupid is feeding into stupid on this realm, players with lackluster information see it as truth and teach other players more stupid, non-researched, theorycraft-lacking bull!@#$.


This is going to be my next tatoo btw
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100 Night Elf Priest
15390
I cannot respond to this one because me gf/gm said i got too mad and backspaced alot of times.. and otherwise i would be repeating the thread if i did
so read back through what is there .. pls
Edited by Alyi on 7/30/2012 11:11 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Priest
15390
07/30/2012 07:16 PMPosted by Novacanex
Guidance is constructive criticism. You're correcting the way they do it, the way they've done things for a certain extent of time, and telling them that what they had been doing is wrong. It's whether or not they act on that that can define a player that can learn and a player that can't. It may as well be a slap on the wrist to some.


07/30/2012 01:51 PMPosted by Alyi
Point is you can bring a horse to water but !@#$ they have to drink it on thier own.
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90 Night Elf Priest
8595
07/31/2012 09:08 AMPosted by Staywasted
i love how the terribad priest is telling other people to l2play


Uhoh, do I want too know how bad?
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100 Night Elf Priest
15390
I wont even think I need to defend me self for spam from a level 47 from a different realm.. and for the other poster.. again from another realm.. grats u got further than me but from ur profile with one kill on alot of that and no pulls u got carried.. this is a realm specific forum.. noone has been told how to work their toons.. if u take the time to read it .. its more about the guilds and the groups ..if no one learns a single thing from this thread .. then the realm wont progress ...because the point of the whole thing is to take 5 mins and read
ten or more if u ride the same bus as one of the kids wearing a helmet
Edited by Alyi on 7/31/2012 10:46 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Priest
8595
/waves, nice too see this still up here!

Moving too the topic at hand!.

I think the idea has a lot of potential, however, I don't personally see many guilds and individuals doing this :'(.

Renerock may come off as an elitist, but he has a valid point.
A standard would need too be set in place for raiding amongst the guilds that would do this. I'm not saying every single guild needs to have the HIGHEST, top notch standards, but we need more than what we have at the moment.

I'll give an example of a" Standard ".
I'll take it from Renerock.

07/29/2012 08:16 PMPosted by Renerock
A standard for raiding has to be met, it should not be acceptable if someone !@#$s up a mechanic over and over again, it should not be acceptable for a mage to wear strength gems, it should not be acceptable for someone to be missing enchants. The root of the problem is that these mistakes go either unnoticed or glazed over.


I personally am missing my shoulder enchant, and if DS was fresh I would go get exalted with Therazane, but it's not fresh so I am not going too bother with it.
I'm a prime example of "Glazed over", only reason why my missing enchant is glazed over, is because I can pull my weight and I'm amazing at healing, but that is besides the point.

The point is, if we set standards for raiding it'd mean no more glazing over,or unnoticed mistakes of the player, and with their class. I know a lot of people aren't going to be willing too grind rep, for all those spify enchants, or gather the perfect gear you can during the time of fresh raiding content, but if you do!

The realm would be better as a whole, and get more noticed by the majority of the player base, it'd hopefully bring fresh people too the realm so we could get more potentially amazing raiders.

Coming together to talk about strategies, about certain boss fights too help the guilds progress would be amazing, however. I can potentially see trouble brewing amongst everyone if we share TOO much information.

The ~Friendly Competition~ that you mentioned before, could be ruined if we give away all our secrets ;-].

As for offering up spots that are available too people from other guilds...
I kinda see that being a good and bad thing. >_>.

It can cause problems within the guild offering the spot, the guildie's would play the card of " You pugged from another guild, even though you could of picked me! ". Which, if said person was under-geared I can understand, however, if they have the gear there is nothing wrong with bringing them into the group. So that they can get the experience they need, and everyone can give pointers too that person on what they need to focus on for improvement.
Thus giving the guild another good raider.

The good part about this is that, people can go into the spot from another guild that is maybe doing heroics, and hopefully down some H-bosses! So they can share the experience with their guild, and perhaps bring more insight to the guild from the boss fight, which only first hand experience can offer ;-D.

This is my thoughts on the whole matter.

/Hugs! Need more tea, all this typing jeeish!
Edited by Lifelight on 8/1/2012 11:48 AM PDT
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- Technical Support
90 Orc Death Knight
0
Even before our guild, team elite, aegis, etc, were the top guilds, there is a constant hatred for the guilds who flourish on this realm (op, entropy, risen) and it is often unjustified. One trait that is prevalent in the majority of premiere raiding guilds on any server is ruthless honesty, do not mistake it for douchebaggery.

No one on this server hates AEGIS the guild was started by real life friends. And as such they treat everyone in the guild like freinds. Its a huge guild and they try to get everyone that wants to raid some raid time. They help people with there spec help them to get gear its just like one big happy family. They finished 3rd on this realm withou ot being a !@#

The problem renerock is a few Douches in the top guilds make everyone think all of you are Douches. I have friends on real id in both Guilds and know not everyone is but one or two are.

Brutal honesty is being a DOUCHE if you do not try to help the person fix what is wrong. My main is on Seljin you ask in trade and you acualy get help. And that is the major problem on this server the ones that can don't they tell people your specs not right but do not offer help to fix it.

Thumpers father said it best if you can't say something nice don't say nothing at all.

If someones spec is wrong try to help them in a nice way if they don't want your help let it be.
Edited by Chuugruskrik on 8/16/2012 12:16 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9590
Even before our guild, team elite, aegis, etc, were the top guilds, there is a constant hatred for the guilds who flourish on this realm (op, entropy, risen) and it is often unjustified. One trait that is prevalent in the majority of premiere raiding guilds on any server is ruthless honesty, do not mistake it for douchebaggery.

No one on this server hates AEGIS the guild was started by real life friends. And as such they treat everyone in the guild like freinds. Its a huge guild and they try to get everyone that wants to raid some raid time. They help people with there spec help them to get gear its just like one big happy family. They finished 3rd on this realm withou ot being a !@#

The problem renerock is a few Douches in Your guilds and Team Elite make everyone think all of you are Douches. I have friends on real id in both Guilds and know not everyone is but one or two are.

Brutal honesty is being a DOUCHE if you do not try to help the person fix what is wrong. My main is on Seljin you ask in trade and you acualy get help. And that is the major problem on this server the ones that can don't they tell people your specs not right but do not offer help to fix it.

Thumpers father said it best if you can't say something nice don't say nothing at all.

If someones spec is wrong try to help them in a nice way if they don't want your help let it be.


Read my post more carefully, I never said Aegis was hated, I simply stated them as one of the guilds near the top in progression. And I agree, brutal honesty is useless unless you tell them what is wrong, which is what we try to do. But the problem is, people like yourself do not like hearing that they are doing something wrong, therefore they get defensive and label the guild the person they belong to as douchebags. You "KNOW" someone is a douche? It is a matter of opinion. Another problem is that people get opinions from second hand sources without actually knowing for themselves. "That guy from Primarch was a total %@#@", "Oh really? well !@#$ I hate them now, it makes sense though, they are the top guild so they must be %@#@s".

And being 3rd on this realm doesn't account for much in the grand scheme of things, being first hardly does either. Your ranking on the national scale is far more important. Saying that they were third on the realm by not being douches says absolutely nothing.

You are putting way too much emphasis on the word "brutal" when I mentioned brutal honesty. If they are doing something wrong, they need to be told. Period. If you keep going around patting everyone on the back they will still be terrible because their sub-par play is being encouraged. I'll revise my previous post, idiocy feeds unto idiocy on this realm, but minced words feeds unto idiocy on this realm too. Brutal honesty doesn't mean being a %@#@, it means telling people the absolute truth without being malicious.

Brutal Honesty in my eyes:

"Your dps is severely lacking, your gems are incorrect, you are missing several enchants, try prioritizing obliterate over frost strike when killing machine procs and make sure to keep your diseases up at all times"

Being a douche:

"Your %^-*ing terrible, go delete your character your dps sucks".

What constitutes someone being a douche is very vague, one opinion can change the entire perception of a institution. No one in my guild is a douche, that is my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

I am a grade A elitist, I'll say that much. But I believe in player development. 13 of our 17 raiders in Primarch were developed from scratch. They were recruited based on personality and their tenacity to raid but their actual raiding performance was simply lackluster initially. I would say that brutal honesty has taken us a long way. This isn't about feelings or not telling someone something because it isn't nice, it is about spreading the truth of optimization, regardless of how ignorant, naive or stubborn someone wants to be. It's time to wake up and make people accountable for their raid performance, and not nurture incompetence because it would be mean to tell them they could play better.
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