MoP raid releases will be staggered

90 Blood Elf Priest
12135
From http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/6813350/Blizzard_Insider_45_%E2%80%93_Mists_of_Pandaria_%E2%80%93_Raid_Preview-7_30_2012 :

One idea we’re considering is to delay opening Mogu’shan Vaults until a week or so after the expansion’s release, similar to how we’ve always handled the start of the PvP season


Mists of Pandaria will also include two other raid zones, which we plan to make available a few weeks after Mogu’shan Vaults: the Heart of the Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring.


...I think that this is a good thing as long as they don't do something stupid like lock out heroic Vaults until people clear normal Terrace, like they did the last time they gated a raid release (ICC.) It makes marathoning through the leveling/5-man phase less important to the tier's progression race.

And as a general rule, I think that anything that makes progression less about time investment and more about skill (that can't be circumvented simply by upping the time investment even more, ie attempt limits in LK) is a good thing.
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90 Troll Druid
13160
07/30/2012 09:53 AMPosted by Suzushiiro
It makes marathoning through the leveling/5-man phase less important to the tier's progression race.


I don't see how. Top guilds are still going to be pushing themselves to be world first in MV (assuming it's ready on release.)
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90 Troll Druid
11615
Bummer if they do this.
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90 Troll Rogue
21045
As long as the instances work independently for the purposes of heroic activation and the gating isn't too long I don't have a huge problem with this.
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85 Human Rogue
8200


And as a general rule, I think that anything that makes progression less about time investment and more about skill (that can't be circumvented simply by upping the time investment even more, ie attempt limits in LK) is a good thing.


As soon as I read this I stopped caring about this post.
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90 Troll Rogue
21045
07/30/2012 10:14 AMPosted by Emzizzle
As soon as I read this I stopped caring about this post.

That isn't an uncommon stance. Xav, GM of Premonition said something similar before DS came out.
http://manaflask.com/en/article/1436/the-raiding-pinnacle-premonition/

How would you improve on the overall raid design that is currently in place?

- Normal modes would only be available week 1.
- LFR difficulty would be made to not enable gaming the system to funnel loot. (Right now, LFR is the worst thing to happen for competitive guilds, it encourages really stupid behaviour to min/max)
- Heroic bosses would be more difficult early on, (so the scale starts at say a 7 and ends at a 10, rather than starting at a 3 or 4 and ending at a 10)
- Heroic bosses would be gated by time, similar to Sunwell, but with less time spent between each gate (maybe 4 weeks total)
- Raiding for more than 8 hours a day would cause your computer to explode
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85 Human Rogue
8200
As soon as I read this I stopped caring about this post.

That isn't an uncommon stance. Xav, GM of Premonition said something similar before DS came out.
http://manaflask.com/en/article/1436/the-raiding-pinnacle-premonition/

How would you improve on the overall raid design that is currently in place?

- Normal modes would only be available week 1.
- LFR difficulty would be made to not enable gaming the system to funnel loot. (Right now, LFR is the worst thing to happen for competitive guilds, it encourages really stupid behaviour to min/max)
- Heroic bosses would be more difficult early on, (so the scale starts at say a 7 and ends at a 10, rather than starting at a 3 or 4 and ending at a 10)
- Heroic bosses would be gated by time, similar to Sunwell, but with less time spent between each gate (maybe 4 weeks total)
- Raiding for more than 8 hours a day would cause your computer to explode


Let me rephrase that. I am in favor of it taking more skill to kill a boss but exactly what do you mean by making it less time consuming. If we are talking about gated content that sure all in favor considering 10/25 man realm first achievements aren't differentiated.
Edited by Emzizzle on 7/30/2012 10:45 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
14070
I recall some world-ranked guilds saying t11 was quite a lot of content to do all at once, that some gating would've been nice, and that was fewer bosses than t14 will be. As long as the delays aren't too extreme it shouldn't be too bad; a week for vault is fine to properly prepare for raiding and around 4 weeks for HoF and terrace would be okay to give time for vault progression.

If the most of the heroic modes keep or raise their level of difficulty from what's been seen on beta tests, then I think a bit of delay between each raid will be much more appreciated than most people probably realize. The amount of raiders this actually holds back from content is incredibly small.
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90 Undead Warrior
15325
Thank. God.

I don't want to start a 25 vs 10 debate; but, let's face it, it's going to be easier to gear up a 10 man to start raiding than it is a 25 man roster. Since Blizzard refuses to separate 10/25 Realm First! achievements, I think this evens the playing field a bit for those nolifers like me who care about server competition.

Also, on a larger scale, my guild does like to compete for US rankings (currently US 41st 25 man). However, we only raid 12 hours a week, so we at a disadvantage when it comes to long raiding tiers (like Tier 14) because there's less time for us to devote to farming gear to make progression easier.

All in all, I'm super excited for this tier, and I welcome the gating.
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85 Human Warlock
15190
I don't like gating. And the big question is will heroic mode be available for vaults as soon as normal vaults is cleared or will we have to wait for the next two instances to be released.


And as a general rule, I think that anything that makes progression less about time investment and more about skill (that can't be circumvented simply by upping the time investment even more, ie attempt limits in LK) is a good thing.


The "skill" in raiding is pretty much just how much repition it takes for everyone on your roster to master an encounter. Really that's it. Raiding is pretty much nothing but time investment.
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85 Orc Death Knight
6225
Am i the only one who thinks gating, "so people don't race through everything", is a sorry excuse to expand the life of those raids? Seriously, if people want to spend ALL DAY on their computers to beat all the bosses, let them. Blizzard needs to stop this gating and capping garbage.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
21745
I'd prefer just holding raids a week or two instead of some goofy staggering.
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90 Troll Rogue
21045
07/30/2012 10:37 AMPosted by Emzizzle
Let me rephrase that. I am in favor of it taking more skill to kill a boss but exactly what do you mean by making it less time consuming.

If you have 2 guilds A and B that start working on a boss at the same time, A it in 15 hours and B kills it in 20 intuitively we say that the guild that A is more skilled. If however B kills it in 2 days at 10 hours per day and A kills it in 3 days at 5 hours per day B would be recorded as being better.

The goal that I think the OP is expressing and Xav was expressing is that somehow you could judge kill quality by time spent rather then time killed at so our hypothetical guild A above would be recognized as the better guild. I'm not sure this is possible to do completely without some huge changes to how raiding works that would probably make things less fun for everyone however shorter units of progression can work towards this goal.
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90 Troll Druid
13160
Ultimately, I don't like it, but I don't think its going to shake up the progression race one way or the other.
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90 Orc Death Knight
16325
Gating is fine as long as there is:

-Plenty of content already in place to keep you occupied
-The content unlocked by each 'gate' isn't pitiful
-The gating process isn't long and drawn out

To this date they haven't done gating 'properly' in my eyes. If they found some common ground between all of the gating and meshed them together we would likely find something everybody would probably enjoy.

The start of the expansion is a perfect opportunity to test these waters, considering you have more than enough to do.

I think ToC did it right with the length between gates but utterly failed in the amount of content each gate unlocked. Taking a month to even see hard modes when the total boss pool was 5, well, is completely unacceptable in my eyes.

ICC and Sunwell did it mostly correctly for content patches at the end of an expansion. You had multiple bosses available from the start with longer waiting periods between gates. Sunwell unlocked very limited content (1 boss) for each gate unlocked, but to it's credit the bosses were fairly difficult.

There is suppose to be multiple raids pegged for the 'launch' of this expansion correct? From the looks of it 'T15' (as in the 5.0 to the 5.1 patch) is actually going to be layered with multiple individual tiers inside one single patch.

I think gating would be fine in this instance if vaults (normal) was delayed a week, and then heroic was naturally fully available the week after (naturally because you need to complete normal to unlock heroic).

I'm not so much for staggering but if the rest of the content (whether it's considered the same tier of loot, a full tier, or a half a tier ahead of vaults) was unlocked relatively soon (like no more than a month) after vaults was fully available, I probably wouldn't mind it.
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85 Human Warlock
15190
07/30/2012 11:02 AMPosted by Fierydemise
If you have 2 guilds A and B that start working on a boss at the same time, A it in 15 hours and B kills it in 20 intuitively we say that the guild that A is more skilled. If however B kills it in 2 days at 10 hours per day and A kills it in 3 days at 5 hours per day B would be recorded as being better.


How about whoever kills it first wins? You know like an actual race?

The guild that kills it the next lockout but does it in five fewer hours can brag about their lighter schedule and use it for recruiting but they did get the kill at a later date.

Also many guilds claim short schedules but ramp up their time during progression so what do you use to measure it? Their posted schedule or their WoL's showing five raid days and a twelve hour session? If you use the WoL count that can be gamed by limiting how much you upload.

Also what do you do if the guild with a ten hour a week schedule chain pulls over and over but the guild with a twenty hour a week schedule takes a long time between pulls because they review fraps, combat logs, analyze everything in sight and in reality take four less pulls to kill the boss. Are they the "more skilled" guild?

You do recognize that the speed of kills is really more often the learning curve gap between top and bottom performers in a raid and that it is worst performing members of a raid who actually determine how long it takes to beat an encounter right? That gives no metric about the top performing members of any two given raids.
Edited by Mcbenys on 7/30/2012 11:19 AM PDT
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90 Human Mage
16360
I really love the idea. It was extremely stressful for T11 raiding to have three separate raids to have to deal with at the same time and all of them at the same difficulty.
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90 Troll Rogue
21045
How about whoever kills it first wins? You know like an actual race?


As I said later in my post I agree it probably isn't possible to work out who actually raids less and rank progression that way because of all the ways to game the system that you note. I think most people realize that isn't possible however at the same time there are things Blizzard can do which make more raw raiding time less game changing. The biggest one is shorter units of progression.
Edited by Fierydemise on 7/30/2012 11:39 AM PDT
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85 Draenei Paladin
0
I don't think this will be too too bad since there will still be a good amount of time to gear up and level professions. But I'm not a hardcore raider so dont have a good perspective on this. (I'll be happy if 10 people in my 25 man guild can be raid ready at end of the first week)

Have they ever gated the opening raid tier before?

Oh and OP, it might be better of the title said may be staggered instead of will be. Yes it does get more people into the thread but it isn't the whole truth :).

Anyways, carry on. Thank you for posting that.

And remember that mog'shan vaults is 1/2 tier behind other 2 raids and doesn't drop tier so it's not out of realm of possibility that the heroic is unlocked immediately.

Though I am disappointed if they delay the other 2 for too long since the race would've been interesting with 16 bosses and gear starting at 0 basically. Taking out 1 whole raid basically from the race would be disappointing. (assuming heart of fear and endless springs come multiple weeks later by how that was worded.)
Edited by Petriim on 7/30/2012 12:49 PM PDT
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