MoP raid releases will be staggered

100 Night Elf Druid
19795
Wow, WOW! So, just looked at loot drops, 0 cloth drops from Mogu'shan Vault with Spirit... Firelands all over again... So, you are fine with Priests not being viable until 5.1 again? Kinda hard to progress without mana regeneration, and kinda hard to regenerate mana without Spirit...

Edit: Looks like maybe one from Stone Guard...

I found, One from spirit kings, stone guard, Spiritbinder,
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90 Draenei Paladin
15820
This could be very good or very bad. Consider two historical examples:

#1: Black Temple was released hot on the heels of the tier 5 raids, so fast no one had even killed Kael'thas to attune to the new dungeon. Verdict: awesome

#2: Trial of the Crusader was released when the mainstream "bulge" of raiders was still working on Ulduar hard modes - not stalled at all, just still in a steady progression phase. Verdict: Ulduar raiding killed before its time, because ToC normal dropped higher ilvl despite being easier than Ulduar Hard

So when the Terrace opens, is it going to look like #1 or #2? It hinges on how mandatory 100% completion of Mogu'shan will be to success in the Terrace. Mandatory = Win. Skippable = Fail. All the arguments, about why Blizzard has favored skippable tiers since WotLK, goes out the window when the tiers are only 4 weeks apart. Myself, I'm hoping this is the first step of a return to form.


This is interesting. One thing I worry about MV is it drops no tier. Now MV heroic does drop 1/2 tier above normal terrace and heart of fear so that's good. Oh and Elegon drops himself as a mount so at the very least MV will be run for that thing. But will MV be run for gear? Or during progression is it clear it for the sake of clearing and then never go back? Also is the VP epic gear MV ilvl or the others?

What I want to know is what difficulty level are they planning? Is MV heroic tuned to be harder or same difficulty as the other 2? Would progression be MV normal->MV heroic->terrace/heart of fear Normal or is it MV normal->terrace/heart of fear normal->MV heroic? Now the top guilds will more than likely clear MV heroic before terrace/heart of fear come out but I would like to know the design intention.

Did I ask too many questions?

Edit: I did check and VP gear is at MV level. LFR gear is 6 ilvls below that.
Edited by Petriim on 8/1/2012 3:36 PM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
I can't take my vacation days back anymore. So I'm screwed in to wasting my time. All my friends game, family is too far away to afford, your move. I took time off of work because every single xpac before this it was necessary to high end raid. You needed very minute you could to get raids done the first week to be able to do heroic/hardmodes the second week, minus TBC which was just really hard on "normal".

Have you not raided at the start of an xpac before? Do you not have fun from all the rush of new and exciting things? Walking in to a raid really undergeared in an attempt to take down a boss? I don't know, those things are amazingly fun to me. To me, having a forced slow down break only takes away from that. I don't know why more of the US folks don't understand it, but EU has lots of posts referring to this kind of thing and the delay taking it out of the game.


I'd count my lucky stars if I were you then. I get 22 vacation days a year, and this year I'll take all of 5 of them. I had 5 carryover from last year I used, 5 I'll take between jobs this year, and I get paid out on the remainder of them. An extra pay and then some isn't something I'm terribly upset about, but just be thankful you have the flexibility to take time off when you want it.


Sounds exaclty like what I did in May. I took time off for a new baby in june, which put me -56 hours of PTO to start. So I'm with ya there.

Grats on the new gig.
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
08/01/2012 02:02 PMPosted by Firestyle
Why not wait a few weeks or longer to deploy LFR. I mean I understand you want people to see the content ( I don't agree with it) but people who can't clear regular will be clearing LFR before most guilds clear regular. I don't think that is logical or fair tbh. I hate LFR because in the beginning as a raider you HAVE to do it which means I have to kill the end boss on LFR before I kill him on regular unless we clear the raid on the first week available (which is possible but not for everyone involved). Make LFR share a lockout with regular or something.


I agree with part of this, in that more than 2 weeks should expire before LFR is released. Only dedicated raiding guilds with experience are capable of getting content down in a single week and you have to admit, it kinda sucks clearing content on LFR mode before you get a chance to do that with the people you enjoy playing with in normal mode.

Like, Bliz - you gotta recognize that kinda sucks. And, this isn't even a hardcore thing. This is supporting the raiding guilds in the trenches, working their way through normals. I think Draztal would say there's nothing wrong with folks beating LFR a few weeks or months after the rest of folks kill it on normal.


My issue with this is lack of stuff to do for us non-normal mode raiders. 5 mans get boring quick.
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85 Human Warlock
15190
08/01/2012 02:23 PMPosted by Poena
It's exactly like what they did in BC only instead of annoying attunements that everyone hated, now you have a fixed schedule.


No attunements are player driven gates in which players progress at the pace they set. The example would be you need to clear vaults and could then enter raid #2. Which is exactly how it was designed prior to this announcement. Saying to enter raid #2 you must clear vaults and an arbitrary date has passed is not an attunement but a false barrier.

What prevented you from entering SSC during the first weeks of TBC? You had to have killed Nightbane and Gruul. The date was irrelevent. What prevented you from entering TK during the first weeks of TBC? Had you completed the trials of the Naru (Heroic Labs, Heroic Arcatraz, and a speed run through heroic Shattered Halls) and downed Magtheridon. The date was irrelevent.

The process of clear raid A before you are eligible to enter raid B is awesome. Tieing that to an arbitrarily assigned date is just a false slow down on the more ambitous players.

08/01/2012 02:59 PMPosted by Poena
You are looking at it wrong, they aren't doing it to manage the hardcore's time, they are doing it to make it less overwhelming for the more casual players, for better content and more stable servers.


Overwhelmed how? You can never be overwhelmed with progression until you start comparing yourself to others. Progression is a spectrum encompassing the very fast, the very slow, and all points in between. And "more casual" players aren't concerned about other people are they? Why should they care if Joe Blow is 9/14 heroic before they finish normal Vaults? How does another player's progression affect them?

How is content quantifiably or qualitatively better because you have to wait for it due to an arbitrary restriction? And that's all this four week delay is. An arbitrary restriction.
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87 Tauren Paladin
0
So essentially MOP will go down as an expansion with no raid content at release?

Another reason to not be playing this expansion.
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11 Gnome Mage
0
08/01/2012 02:42 PMPosted by Sensations
Although I usually agree with you I'm surprised you agree with Blizzard forcing their schedule onto players. Blizzard always talks about players doing things at their own pace and on their own time. Yet they come in here and tell a certain playerbase when they can do the content and give them a schedule for it. They use the excuse that players don't wish to be overwhelmed which I don't understand unless Blizzard is catering to 11 year olds who don't know time management.


I don't expect people to agree with me all the time, but the number of people that say they usually do is encouraging. Maybe I can at least get a few people to see the other side on this one, even if I know (as I think Blizzard does too) that not everybody is going to be happy with this one.

The way I see it, not all choice is good.

The best example I can think of is something that changed a long time ago, but some people may still remember. For a long time, you could use as many potions as you wanted on a fight, you could use a flask along with elixirs, and you could use as many different types of elixirs as benefited you. I don't need to explain the results.

To most of us, that probably seems crazy at this point. But back when they removed it, there was an outcry about Bizzard catering to casuals, and ruining the raiding game. Afterall, it should be their choice if they want to spend hours outside of raid farming buffs or not, and if people don't want to, they didn't have to do it.

The reality is, it wasn't a good choice. Sure, there are some people that love farming and loved having a reason to do it, and they were disappointed by the change, and that's fair. But for most of the population, there was a collective sigh of relief. Despite the fact Blizzard took away a "choice" from people, most people were glad it happened, because it wasn't a choice they liked having to make.


This is a similar case. You have to keep in mind that "raiders" are not split cleanly into two camps: Those that like progress, and those that like playing other content. There's a fair bit (actually, a majority of) overlap between the two, since afterall, most people playing the game like the game. This change (both parts) takes pressure off of them to skip other parts of the game in order to remain competitive in the raiding game.

It's taking away a choice that the majority of players don't want to have to make. That's why people are cheering this option on. It's inconvenient for a few people with a very specific way they like to play (that is, raid as much as humanly possible and don't care about anything else), just like not needing 3000 potions a week isn't convenient for people who love farming for raid mats.

They could have taken all consumables out of the game, which some people would love, but they didn't. They could have waited 2 weeks at the start like they do for PvP and then phased in 1 raid every month past that, which again, some people would love -- but they didn't.


That's why I'm fine with it. It's a vast improvement for the majority of raiders, and those that it does inconvenience, it doesn't inconvenience much because they kept the numbers reasonable. I think there's room for debate on the numbers (maybe 3 or 5 weeks is better than 4, or maybe there should be 2 weeks at the start like the PvP season, etc), but I don't see the whole change as being negative.
Edited by Strawberry on 8/1/2012 3:53 PM PDT
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8 Blood Elf Mage
0
Its a only a week... People that are complaining.. get a life, gear up, level alts. This helps even out the differnent Euro & North America release times, server crashes, queues, and other random crap that always happens when a new exp comes out.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17450
Although I usually agree with you I'm surprised you agree with Blizzard forcing their schedule onto players. Blizzard always talks about players doing things at their own pace and on their own time. Yet they come in here and tell a certain playerbase when they can do the content and give them a schedule for it. They use the excuse that players don't wish to be overwhelmed which I don't understand unless Blizzard is catering to 11 year olds who don't know time management.


I don't expect people to agree with me all the time, but the number of people that say they usually do is encouraging. Maybe I can at least get a few people to see the other side on this one, even if I know (as I think Blizzard does too) that not everybody is going to be happy with this one.

The way I see it, not all choice is good.

The best example I can think of is something that changed a long time ago, but some people may still remember. For a long time, you could use as many potions as you wanted on a fight, you could use a flask along with elixirs, and you could use as many different types of elixirs as benefited you. I don't need to explain the results.

To most of us, that probably seems crazy at this point. But back when they removed it, there was an outcry about Bizzard catering to casuals, and ruining the raiding game. Afterall, it should be their choice if they want to spend hours outside of raid farming buffs or not, and if people don't want to, they didn't have to do it.

The reality is, it wasn't a good choice. Sure, there are some people that love farming and loved having a reason to do it, and they were disappointed by the change, and that's fair. But for most of the population, there was a collective sigh of relief. Despite the fact Blizzard took away a "choice" from people, most people were glad it happened, because it wasn't a choice they liked having to make.


This is a similar case. You have to keep in mind that "raiders" are not split cleanly into two camps: Those that like progress, and those that like playing other content. There's a fair bit (actually, a majority of) overlap between the two, since afterall, most people playing the game like the game. This change (both parts) takes pressure off of them to skip other parts of the game in order to remain competitive in the raiding game.

It's taking away a choice that the majority of players don't want to have to make. That's why people are cheering this option on. It's inconvenient for a few people with a very specific way they like to play (that is, raid as much as humanly possible and don't care about anything else), just like not needing 3000 potions a week isn't convenient for people who love farming for raid mats.

They could have taken all consumables out of the game, which some people would love, but they didn't. They could have waited 2 weeks at the start like they do for PvP and then phased in 1 raid every month past that, which again, some people would love -- but they didn't.


That's why I'm fine with it. It's a vast improvement for the majority of raiders, and those that it does inconvenience, it doesn't inconvenience much because they kept the numbers reasonable. I think there's room for debate on the numbers (maybe 3 or 5 weeks is better than 4, or maybe there should be 2 weeks at the start like the PvP season, etc), but I don't see the whole change as being negative.


I can agree when it is put that way.

Raid dungeons Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring are scheduled to be released on normal difficulty four weeks after Mogu'shan Vaults has been opened. ;)


So the heroic raiders will have Vaults for more than 4 weeks if they complete it? It would help if you could explain more about when heroics will be available for the other raids.
Edited by Sensations on 8/1/2012 3:57 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
15820
Its a only a week... People that are complaining.. get a life, gear up, level alts. This helps even out the differnent Euro & North America release times, server crashes, queues, and other random crap that always happens when a new exp comes out.


I think what most people are complaining about ATM is the 4 weeks from MV release till terrace and heart of fear release not really the 1 week one as much. That part seems to have sunk in for those who like it and those who don't, the 1 week delay. Remember that top guilds will be clearing MV heroic a good amount of time before the others are released.
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85 Night Elf Druid
17665
It's just funny, Harrison Bergeron is happening more and more every patch. Limiting everyone subtly towards mediocrity. (Most people missing the argument, this is an inch, the next limit to raiding will be a mile)

Delay raids a week so jimmy can raid
But wait, he needs more help
Next patch we'll see a month before raid content post-patch so Jimmy can compete for world first, even though he only killed the 2nd boss on LFR.
Next patch..

As with any slippery slope arguments in WoW
THEYVE ALL COME TRUE.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
11350
Just curious, why is raid finder being released a week after normal version?


This is a matter of striking a balance between preserving the feeling of guild progression and making the content accessible to players outside of organized guilds. We definitely want to see everyone have a chance to experience Mists of Pandaria raid content, so holding Raid Finder mode for a week feels like a reasonable window of time to accommodate players of all stripes.

For everything that thinks this is a good idea: Get ready to wait months for the second set of raids.


We thought our intent was made pretty clear in the Blizzard Insider article, as well as in my original post. But, if it’ll ease your concern, I’ll be more specific!

Raid dungeons Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring are scheduled to be released on normal difficulty four weeks after Mogu'shan Vaults has been opened. ;)


Wow. Four weeks?

So you are hoping that the huge limit on getting gear from only the first raid instance prevents heroic mode completion further slowing down content consumption.

Why do people who are not raiding have a ton of content available at launch and raiders have to wait up to a month for all of our launch content?
Edited by Ariktu on 8/1/2012 3:59 PM PDT
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85 Orc Rogue
TM
8220
I think it's not smart to delay normal mode raid for MV until 1 week after launch. Can we get a confirmation that this is or is not the plan at this moment in time?
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97 Undead Priest
15960
You are looking at it wrong, they aren't doing it to manage the hardcore's time, they are doing it to make it less overwhelming for the more casual players, for better content and more stable servers. No, these changes are not out to dictate how you play the game but instead out to make the game more enjoyable for the majority.

If that was really the case why would they put 16 bosses in the first tier? It would've made more sense just to have a small/medium sized first tier and follow it up quickly with a big tier like this.


... That's exactly what they are doing. Small 6 boss raid 1 week after launch, two larger raids with 10 extra's 4 weeks after launch.

Posted by Poena
You are looking at it wrong, they aren't doing it to manage the hardcore's time, they are doing it to make it less overwhelming for the more casual players, for better content and more stable servers. No, these changes are not out to dictate how you play the game but instead out to make the game more enjoyable for the majority.

Cataclysm wasn't overwhelming for me at all. Not exactly sure what angle you're coming from here. But I could say that with most of your posts.


It was overwhelming for the vast majority on our server as nearly every guild collapsed. As for where I am coming from... I'm coming from my point of view... the one that says the people demanding all of this content right now are over the top in their demands.

As for my posts making sense... This guy says it perfectly:

Blizzard has, for years now, faced a certain segment of the playerbase whose behavior is to gobble up everything the moment it is released as fast as they possibly can - and then immediately clamor for more and complain about having nothing to do.

For seven years, Blizzard has been running raids like an "all you can eat" restaurant - and yes, they have contributed to a culture where people value running to the trough and stuffing all the raiding they can down their gullets.

Looks like they'd like to see how a more traditional restaurant works. Instead of binging on the orange chicken, you'll have to have an appetizer, wait for your main course to arrive, and maybe have a little conversation between gulps.

I can't say it is unreasonable.

And yeah. I just called you fat.
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90 Troll Druid
11615
08/01/2012 03:58 PMPosted by Spard
I think it's not smart to delay normal mode raid for MV until 1 week after launch. Can we get a confirmation that this is or is not the plan at this moment in time?


08/01/2012 10:05 AMPosted by Crithto
Keep in mind, Mogu’shan Vaults opens up one week after Mists of Pandaria launches.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
11350
08/01/2012 02:59 PMPosted by Poena
I don't even know why people are ok with this, sure it doesn't effect most of us but principles hold a lot of weight. If Blizzard ever dictated to me how to spend my time, then I simply wouldn't be playing anymore. Because it's their time and they can choose how to spend it, not Blizzard. It's their game yes, but getting involved in peoples time management is simply overstepping their bounds.


You are looking at it wrong, they aren't doing it to manage the hardcore's time, they are doing it to make it less overwhelming for the more casual players, for better content and more stable servers. No, these changes are not out to dictate how you play the game but instead out to make the game more enjoyable for the majority.


No.

They are doing it to slow progression and have content last longer.

They fear that if they release all the raid content right at launch that at least some guilds might clear normal modes in the first week and start heroic progression in the 2nd week.

This way the last two raid instances will not even be available until 5 weeks after launch in normal modes so those heroic progression fights will not be available until 6 weeks after launch at the earliest.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17450
You are looking at it wrong, they aren't doing it to manage the hardcore's time, they are doing it to make it less overwhelming for the more casual players, for better content and more stable servers. No, these changes are not out to dictate how you play the game but instead out to make the game more enjoyable for the majority.

If that was really the case why would they put 16 bosses in the first tier? It would've made more sense just to have a small/medium sized first tier and follow it up quickly with a big tier like this.


... That's exactly what they are doing. Small 6 boss raid 1 week after launch, two larger raids with 10 extra's 4 weeks after launch.

Posted by Poena
You are looking at it wrong, they aren't doing it to manage the hardcore's time, they are doing it to make it less overwhelming for the more casual players, for better content and more stable servers. No, these changes are not out to dictate how you play the game but instead out to make the game more enjoyable for the majority.

Cataclysm wasn't overwhelming for me at all. Not exactly sure what angle you're coming from here. But I could say that with most of your posts.


It was overwhelming for the vast majority on our server as nearly every guild collapsed. As for where I am coming from... I'm coming from my point of view... the one that says the people demanding all of this content right now are over the top in their demands.

As for my posts making sense... This guy says it perfectly:

Blizzard has, for years now, faced a certain segment of the playerbase whose behavior is to gobble up everything the moment it is released as fast as they possibly can - and then immediately clamor for more and complain about having nothing to do.

For seven years, Blizzard has been running raids like an "all you can eat" restaurant - and yes, they have contributed to a culture where people value running to the trough and stuffing all the raiding they can down their gullets.

Looks like they'd like to see how a more traditional restaurant works. Instead of binging on the orange chicken, you'll have to have an appetizer, wait for your main course to arrive, and maybe have a little conversation between gulps.

I can't say it is unreasonable.

And yeah. I just called you fat.


The only time I've seen people cry for more content is when Blizzard makes an 8 boss raid last 10 months. Which they are 100% in the right to claim for more content.
Edited by Sensations on 8/1/2012 4:03 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9290
Me too love this plan, my dream was always to enjoy the first week without the pressure to lv and equip to start raiding as fast as we can.

What i didn't understand is the fact we are going to have 3 weeks of Mogu'shan Vaults heroic before next 2 normal instances open.

To go through Heart and Endless with some MV heroic gear make senses since the ilv of those normal tests was pretty high, but the ilv for all heroic tests was the same. So i sugest you get down a bit the dificulty of MV heroic or else people are going to hit their head in a brick wall for 3 weeks.
Edited by Póttz on 8/1/2012 4:05 PM PDT
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