MoP Healer Evaluations from Vodka

86 Tauren Shaman
14225
Blizzard needs to take a hard look at mana regen and standardize it so that healers are actually achieving similar amounts of mana gained vs mana spent. They also need to make Spirit actually worth a damn if they want us to rely on it so much. The healers that are actually in a good place are the ones relying on Spirit the least.

Beyond that the issues get more class specific, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna go through another Tier 11/12 scenario as a Shaman. There's no excuse for such pathetic class functionality again. What the heck, Blizzard? Did you learn anything from the last expansion at all? I expect far better, and launch is dangerously close...
Edited by Gumshoe on 7/29/2012 11:43 AM PDT
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92 Goblin Shaman
4715
god damn paladins
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90 Pandaren Shaman
14890
07/29/2012 09:17 AMPosted by Paintbrush
Seriously though, looking at Kaels' logs either he's absurdly talented and should be picked up by one of these world ranked guilds OR the hpallies/druids/etc in the top guilds just significantly outperform their priests. I seriously doubt the first, Kaels is definitely a good player but there is no way the skill differential from him to the world ranked priests is that big.


I think that he said he is pretty much PUGging his raid tests as opposed to a guild group. There is obviously a significant skill difference between healers with the skills to play at the level of the top guilds and the average player. The skill gap is actually so large that when you are looking at a random PuG type group, player skill is a far larger limiting factor in determining performance than class is.

Therefore, it's entirely possible for a good player of the weakest spec to outperform an average player of the strongest spec. Class only really starts to be a limiting factor when everyone is at a very similar skill level. That's why logs of top guilds are actually a much better tool to analyze healer balance than logs from random pugs with players of varying skill levels.
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I don't think Kaels' logs were intended as a display on how much he may have thrashed his healing partner(s), but rather as a display of his personal throughput.

In other words, it has nothing to do with whether or not he pugged vs being in a guild group, his throughput should not have been possible as a holy priest if what people are saying is entirely true. :P

edit: typo
Edited by Morenn on 7/29/2012 1:13 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12825
Yep, I'm pugging. But if we assume that I'm about average-to-below-average for a hardmode raider (come on, I only made it to 5/8 in DS), statistically, if I'm pugging with other hardmode raiders, around half of them should be as good as I am or better. Which means I should see that ~20% gap vodka's seeing at least some of the time.

I'm not seeing it. I really should have taken more logs.

I don't think Kaels' logs were intended as a display on how much he may have thrashed his healing partner(s), but rather as a display of his personal throughput.

In other words, it has nothing to do with whether or not he pugged vs being in a guild group, his throughput should not have been possible as a holy priest if what people are saying is entirely true. :P

edit: typo

Meh, I don't think 55k for 2.5 minutes is particularly special. On the right fight I can maintain about 60k for 3-4 minutes...on the wrong fight (anywhere I have to move a lot) I drop down to 40k or so because I have to pick up Mindbender and conserve mana. There's too much variability to compare HPS numbers across fights.

I don't think vodka's log screenshot was meant to demonstrate the best their healers could do - I think it was meant to showcase the relative gaps between classes. I'm sure their priests/shamans/monks/druids are pulling a hell of a lot more than 51k on the fights where they get to show off.
Edited by Kaels on 7/29/2012 1:30 PM PDT
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07/29/2012 01:14 PMPosted by Kaels
I don't think vodka's log screenshot was meant to demonstrate the best their healers could do - I think it was meant to showcase the relative gaps between classes. I'm sure their priests/shamans/monks/druids are pulling a hell of a lot more than 51k on the fights where they get to show off.


Oh I don't think it was either. I am just having a hard time believing we are as in as dire straits as some seem to feel. That's not to say there aren't issues, there absolutely ARE. I just think "vodka says priests are terrible omg my rl is going to make me sit/reroll" is a bit.. overdramatic?
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100 Draenei Shaman
10665
I would not panic just yet. Those of you who went to the mana flask page could have seen a poster by the name of sonie arguing about the conclusions related to priests. The poster's profile claims he is from ENVY. I would not want to treat one guild's opinion (no matter how good) as absolute truth set in stone until I see some videos of kills in MOP and see what people bring for what.

I have a hard time believing priests would be dead last healer in any tear. Has that happened in recent history? To me to avoid being benched one must be equally good at more than one healer.
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100 Worgen Druid
17900
Resto druids have pretty much the exact same toolkit we had in Wrath.

They gave us Mushrooms. They were interesting, a bit of a pain to use, but something new that could become an interesting part of our healing toolkit.

Then they got nerfed to the point where they are going to be exist only as a filler spell if we are strapped for mana. They do less than every other spell we have now.

They were introduced as our "burst AoE". But 3 Mastery buffed Mushrooms are going to heal for less than 10% of a player's HP after taking 3 GCDs to set up and having a 10sec CD.

How is that not a bleh situation for us?
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1 Undead Warrior
0
07/29/2012 01:57 PMPosted by Morenn
Oh I don't think it was either. I am just having a hard time believing we are as in as dire straits as some seem to feel. That's not to say there aren't issues, there absolutely ARE. I just think "vodka says priests are terrible omg my rl is going to make me sit/reroll" is a bit.. overdramatic


To be blunt, yes, Healing priests are that bad right now. Disc is in very dire straights.

Disc, the last expansion, had the best regen. But they also got average healing done by spells cast. They worked, because they could go to town with expensive heals but could regen matter at an amazing rate when played well.

They lost their regen and did not get anything back in return. Also, by keeping PW:S as a 6 second cooldown, they lose a ton of their utility, and their ability to do much on high movement fights. Disc lost the things that made them potent and got nothing in return.

Lastly, the whole PW: Solace in conjunction with all the Attonement heals make little sense when combined. Attonement was genereally used as a filler when not much is going on. Now, you have to get your 5 stack, get the 25% healing buff, then spam PW: Solace when time allows.

It is just awkward.

I doubt it would ever happen, but I would love to see spirit shell turned into a stance. One side would be healing. The other side would turn all heals to absorbs.
Edited by Endlessrage on 7/29/2012 4:02 PM PDT
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85 Draenei Priest
11360
I thought this comment left at the end of the Vodka synopsis was interesting....

"They are private however I do agree that priests needs some sort of change when it comes to the mana efficient of PoH, atm it's barely used since it is a lot better to play like a Druid with Inner Will and just do instants as holy.

Which I bet is something your priests havent figured out."

Discuss :).
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100 Undead Priest
16930
07/29/2012 02:59 PMPosted by Outdoorlife
I would not want to treat one guild's opinion (no matter how good) as absolute truth set in stone until I see some videos of kills in MOP and see what people bring for what.


It's not just one guilds opinion... it is also my experience and understanding of the class. My iLvl 409 Priest feels weaker and has less longevity on the PTR than my iLvl ~370 Resto Druid... Now obviously this is 5.0.4 and not level 90 MoP raiding... but based on that experience + Vodka's breakdown, I tend to believe what they are saying, because it was already something I wondered if true.

TLDR; Few people are saying Priests are good for MoP... but if they are, the talk is about Holy Priests... with literally no one says anything good about Disc Priests. If you know the class, then you will understand why.
Edited by Poena on 7/29/2012 5:00 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
16615
it is a lot better to play like a Druid with Inner Will and just do instants as holy.

Which I bet is something your priests havent figured out."

Discuss :).


Oh, I know this. Renew and CoH are wicked cheap right now. What I don't know is if that's enough throughput.
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07/29/2012 04:00 PMPosted by Endlessrage
Also, by keeping PW:S as a 6 second cooldown, they lose a ton of their utility, and their ability to do much on high movement fights


It hasn't had a 6s cd in months.

Lastly, the whole PW: Solace in conjunction with all the Attonement heals make little sense when combined. Attonement was genereally used as a filler when not much is going on. Now, you have to get your 5 stack, get the 25% healing buff, then spam PW: Solace when time allows.


I don't disagree with this. Personally I hate the whole concept of using PW:So (without even taking Archangel stacks into account). I am hoping for the content I run that Mindbender will be enough, but we shall see in 2 months.

07/29/2012 04:00 PMPosted by Endlessrage
I doubt it would ever happen, but I would love to see spirit shell turned into a stance. One side would be healing. The other side would turn all heals to absorbs.


I am actually quite happy with SS as it is now. The cooldown is pretty short, and you can get up some pretty good shields within that 15s timeframe.
Edited by Morenn on 7/29/2012 5:18 PM PDT
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MVP
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
12350
I dunno... with the current holy priest tools... I just can't say they're last place. Their abilities are just so strong.

We'll see what happens I guess, but this just doesn't add up.


We all know that it's nigh impossible to determine the value of tools/utility, but AFAIK what we're reading here is correct.

Thankfully, this is only a numbers thing and they can tune it as necessary to fix it. Though, when you consider the additional utility that Paladins have things start to look skewed in terms of balance.

I have always hated Beacon of Light, and I do not support their stance of making Paladins the "free heals" healer. I do not think that sort of design works in the raiding environment. And I genuinely think that this is a large part of the problem with the Paladin toolkit in how they appear in terms of power.
Edited by Practical on 7/29/2012 5:36 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
14890
I dunno... with the current holy priest tools... I just can't say they're last place. Their abilities are just so strong.

We'll see what happens I guess, but this just doesn't add up.


We all know that it's nigh impossible to determine the value of tools/utility, but AFAIK what we're reading here is correct.

Thankfully, this is only a numbers thing and they can tune it as necessary to fix it. Though, when you consider the additional utility that Paladins have things start to look skewed in terms of balance.

I have always hated Beacon of Light, and I do not support their stance of making Paladins the "free heals" healer. I do not think that sort of design works in the raiding environment. And I genuinely think that this is a large part of the problem with the Paladin toolkit in how they appear in terms of power.


Paladins are not the only healer that gets a significant proportion of their output from free heals.
-Monks have Chi based heals that are a bit similar to Holy Power
-Druids have both Omen of Clarity procs and Efflorvesence which are both essentially mana free heals
-Shaman output from Earthliving Weapon and Ancestral Awakening is basically "free"

In DS, the free output that Shaman and Druids get tends to be as strong or even stronger than the output paladins get from Beacon + Holy Power. The issue now is that the more spread out, more mana limited mechanics of T14 are favoring Beacon a lot more than T13 did, so we're seeing it's contribution to Paladin output be 3-4 times more significant than it was in T13.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
14890
Resto druids have pretty much the exact same toolkit we had in Wrath.

They gave us Mushrooms. They were interesting, a bit of a pain to use, but something new that could become an interesting part of our healing toolkit.

Then they got nerfed to the point where they are going to be exist only as a filler spell if we are strapped for mana. They do less than every other spell we have now.

They were introduced as our "burst AoE". But 3 Mastery buffed Mushrooms are going to heal for less than 10% of a player's HP after taking 3 GCDs to set up and having a 10sec CD.

How is that not a bleh situation for us?


Well, you also got a tank cooldown added, plus changes that drastically reduced the amount of GCDs you need to spend on Lifebloom, as well as making Harmony have a near guaranteed 100% uptime without having to sometimes be forced to cast a single target spell you wouldn't want to cast. Those are very nice changes.

On top of that, Druids were in a strong position in Cata, with the highest throughput from 4.06 to 4.3, and the only healer with stronger post 4.3 throughput was significantly revamped/changed.
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