MoP Healer Evaluations from Vodka

90 Orc Shaman
HC
16485
Two quotes to look at and has somewhat relevance to this thread.

Bloom is not intended to be worth using rotationally. It should be worth planting the ‘Shooms when you have downtime, or lulls in healing requirements, and then Bloom them later on when you need burst healing (since Bloom is off the GCD). The numbers do appear off a bit for that design so we will adjust.


We're just not seeing healing priests falling behind on HPM or HPS in the current raid or challenge mode testing. I don't want to dismiss the concerns though, and we will keep an eye on it. Lack of "raid utility" is a very slippery beast. In my experience, healers always think their particular character lacks it. We believe however that all of the healers will continue to see plenty of PvE use, as they did in Cataclysm, and we want to get more of them competitive in PvP.
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85 Draenei Priest
11360
07/29/2012 04:59 PMPosted by Paintbrush
What's there to discuss? Why bring a Holy Priest for progression if a Resto Druid brings everything they do and more?


Well, that is kind of a silly question. Clearly if one or two specs are that far ahead of the rest you wouldn't bother bringing anything else. Of course, clearly if one or two specs are that far ahead of the rest they're fixing to get beat down by the nerf bat too.

07/29/2012 04:59 PMPosted by Trillien
Oh, I know this. Renew and CoH are wicked cheap right now. What I don't know is if that's enough throughput.


Well, if you go off the Wowhead information for MoP bombing a 5 tick Renew with IW up and refreshing with the Chakra Serenity refresh mechanic would be more efficient than PoH. It's also possible the Wowhead stuff is way off base so take that with a grain of salt though. It's not quite as much throughput but it's not that terribly far behind, particularly because PoH tends to overheal.
Edited by Volios on 8/1/2012 8:53 PM PDT
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1 Undead Warrior
0
07/29/2012 05:10 PMPosted by Morenn
It hasn't had a 6s cd in months.


Touche. Been a while since I payed much attention getting back in the swing of things.

07/29/2012 06:23 PMPosted by Sensations
We're just not seeing healing priests falling behind on HPM or HPS in the current raid or challenge mode testing. I don't want to dismiss the concerns though, and we will keep an eye on it. Lack of "raid utility" is a very slippery beast. In my experience, healers always think their particular character lacks it. We believe however that all of the healers will continue to see plenty of PvE use, as they did in Cataclysm, and we want to get more of them competitive in PvP.


This worries me. Alot. Even if there numbers show healing priests being ok, that doesn't mean it is playable. Just because "on paper" both specs work and function, does not mean they are fun or are playable. I remember a conversation very similiar to this right before cata happened, again pretty much all the priests were in agreement that things were bad. Blizz did not agree. It was pretty rough going to a patch hit.

Shaman got told they were ok for all of last expansion even though the community agreed they were pretty broken. I really had hoped these stack up spells would go away. It seems to be something the Dev team likes though. Hence the addition of bloom for druids.

Guess it might be time to retire the priest and go dps, not sure what to play though.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
0
Paladins are not the only healer that gets a significant proportion of their output from free heals.
-Monks have Chi based heals that are a bit similar to Holy Power
-Druids have both Omen of Clarity procs and Efflorvesence which are both essentially mana free heals
-Shaman output from Earthliving Weapon and Ancestral Awakening is basically "free"


Everyone has a source of 'free' heals, and they are usually given as a way to either regen mana or for as mentioned, free heals.

That said

-Word of Glory
-Light of Dawn
-Protector of the Innocent
-Beacon of Light transfers

We have the most 'free' heals out of every healer. It's the reason why our mana costs are outrageous. Anyway, the point is that our output is ridiculous and simple numerical tuning can fix that. I don't think it's a mechanic issue at all.

However, the proliferation of the free-heals is probably what's making Paladins this strong. It's always been that reason.
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90 Worgen Druid
4810
07/28/2012 10:22 AMPosted by Gamex
I actually had priest/dru at #1, and monk/sham #2 and #3, and pallies as #5 at last place, but apparently blossomz has shown that everyone else on earth who plays pally just sucks! And apparently our holy priest is just a god.


Gamex > Vodka

Honestly, everybody is going to exaggerate something when doing this type of analysis. They link 2 logs to show that paladins are WAY AHEAD of everybody else (or at least shaman and priests)? Are we supposed to take this as conclusive evidence?

Sure their entitled to their "rankings", it just doesn't seem anywhere close to being conclusive in any way imo.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16485
I do remember during normal modes BL's Paladin was using Eternal Flame/Divine purpose which was before the massive buff to EF and even then it was doing almost 25-30% of his healing(Which is basically free). I honestly wouldn't be surprised if those two talents are being used in heroics especially after the buff it received. So it is possible their paladin is using that setup but looks like we'll have to wait and see ^.^
Edited by Sensations on 7/29/2012 8:46 PM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
16470
07/29/2012 06:33 PMPosted by Volios
Of course, clearly if one or two specs are that far ahead of the rest they're fixing to get beat down by the nerf bat too.


Which is the point of this entire thread. Either beat down other specs (or preferably, buff up others... Honestly healing doesn't seem like it would be fun if we were all at Disc Priest levels)
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90 Worgen Druid
11990
I actually had priest/dru at #1, and monk/sham #2 and #3, and pallies as #5 at last place, but apparently blossomz has shown that everyone else on earth who plays pally just sucks! And apparently our holy priest is just a god.


Gamex > Vodka

Honestly, everybody is going to exaggerate something when doing this type of analysis. They link 2 logs to show that paladins are WAY AHEAD of everybody else (or at least shaman and priests)? Are we supposed to take this as conclusive evidence?

Sure their entitled to their "rankings", it just doesn't seem anywhere close to being conclusive in any way imo.


OP pally in disguise!

Resto druids have pretty much the exact same toolkit we had in Wrath.

They gave us Mushrooms. They were interesting, a bit of a pain to use, but something new that could become an interesting part of our healing toolkit.

Then they got nerfed to the point where they are going to be exist only as a filler spell if we are strapped for mana. They do less than every other spell we have now.

They were introduced as our "burst AoE". But 3 Mastery buffed Mushrooms are going to heal for less than 10% of a player's HP after taking 3 GCDs to set up and having a 10sec CD.

How is that not a bleh situation for us?


Well, you also got a tank cooldown added, plus changes that drastically reduced the amount of GCDs you need to spend on Lifebloom, as well as making Harmony have a near guaranteed 100% uptime without having to sometimes be forced to cast a single target spell you wouldn't want to cast. Those are very nice changes.

On top of that, Druids were in a strong position in Cata, with the highest throughput from 4.06 to 4.3, and the only healer with stronger post 4.3 throughput was significantly revamped/changed.


Actually druids had a pretty low point to start cata, until 4.1 and the tranq/WG/efflo buff, we were in a bad spot.

As for MoP, we got some nice tools, but nothing game changing. This is a plus/minus. We have not been screwed up, but overall it is a bit meh, as he said. We do not even have nature's grace to up the skill cap with, and with harmony and LB maintenance made simplistic, it leaves the class filling a bit.. well simplistic. Being competitive is not my worry, just keeping the class fun. Soul of the forest is adding a new twist, but I am undecided on it over incarnation. Mushrooms had that potential but they were made pretty bland this last patch. I personally want them to cost more, have a longer CD, but be a true burst heal that takes planning, not just a filler spell with widespread weak aoe healing.
Edited by Fangthorn on 7/30/2012 1:16 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Priest
16535
Thank you to everyone in this thread. When I first saw the vodka blog I shot here to post a link, hoping to spark a discussion. I've only had experience with the PTR version of disc and what vodka had to say on their blog was... disconcerting.

Again, thank you to those with beta AND ptr experience posting here.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11125
Exactly.

Not much to discuss there, it's a pretty clear cut case. But really, Resto Druids keep bringing the same utility that Holy Priests bring, along with increased mana longevity and HPS. Even if it wasn't a large gap, that kind of shafts Holy. The whole "jack of all trades" thing doesn't really work when Blizzard tries to give every healer good AoE healing and good tank healing.


:/ And other classes don't have to deal with chakra. \
Chakra seems to mean: Be gimped at AoE healing and as good single target as other healers
OR
Be gimped single target and on par AoE heals.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
14890
Paladins are not the only healer that gets a significant proportion of their output from free heals.
-Monks have Chi based heals that are a bit similar to Holy Power
-Druids have both Omen of Clarity procs and Efflorvesence which are both essentially mana free heals
-Shaman output from Earthliving Weapon and Ancestral Awakening is basically "free"


Everyone has a source of 'free' heals, and they are usually given as a way to either regen mana or for as mentioned, free heals.

That said

-Word of Glory
-Light of Dawn
-Protector of the Innocent
-Beacon of Light transfers

We have the most 'free' heals out of every healer. It's the reason why our mana costs are outrageous. Anyway, the point is that our output is ridiculous and simple numerical tuning can fix that. I don't think it's a mechanic issue at all.

However, the proliferation of the free-heals is probably what's making Paladins this strong. It's always been that reason.


PoTI is removed in MoP. And LoD and WoG are mutually exclusive, so I would really only consider them one source of free healing
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90 Undead Priest
16470
07/30/2012 02:11 AMPosted by Winnifred
And other classes don't have to deal with chakra. \


You forgot the most important problem with Chakra... Hate healing as a Holy Priest. Seriously, using Chakra makes me hate being a healer. Healing to me is always about reaction, and if I need to stance dance to properly react, something is completely wrong with my class.

Why is it that Priests are the only class with drawbacks to healing and other classes can just heal (or am I mistaken?)?

As a Holy Priest you need to be in your single target Chakra or aoe Chakra.

As Disc, to have competitive single target HPS, you need to build up grace stacks which in turn makes you useless for fights with random single target damage (Heroic Spine + Burning Plasma).

Disc like Resto Shaman has the only targeted raid cooldown.

Disc is the only healer without a raid heal (PoH is a party heal).
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I think that it's important to point out that while yes, both Druids and Holy Priests now bring a Raid CD (Tranq/DH) and a tank CD (Barkskin/Guardian Spirit)...the two are not the same.

In the same way that Pain Suppression has been, for the most part, far superior to Guardian Spirit, Barkskin will most likely be far superior to Guardian Spirit outside of a few gimmick fights.

Every time it looks like GS might have an advantage, the devs hotfix the fight (lolHeroicMadness).
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90 Night Elf Druid
14625
Paintbrush, there is something that in my perception, I find faulty in your arguments. I dont understand how if its been proven that H Pallies outperform all other classes in Beta, you still feel the need to target R Druids as examples of a class that "has it all"

This is not the first time I have seen other classes singling out Druids and it frankly worries me. Comparing classes is a tenous excercise, and its futile at best since it leaves many factors such as player skill out of the table.

I admit i might be missreading your intentions, but I believe threads like this are extremely deceptive specially since the population at large hasnt been able to see the changes firsthand, and those who have, lack the benefit of lengthy experience with those changes to make fair and accurate predictions.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
Has there ever been an x-pac where Pallies weren't the best healer at the beginning, middle and end? At this point I'm starting to believe the conspiracy posts that say the devs keep Pally's so strong to appease the majority or players.
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90 Night Elf Druid
14625
I disagree, and I'm not saying that Resto Druids have it all. If throughput was all that mattered, then Disc Priests would be thrown to the wayside for heroic raiding (which they are very much NOT).

Simply put, compared to Holy Priests, Resto Druids outperform them in every way possible. This could change if Holy had higher throughput than Resto Druids, but even then Holy Priests have no niche, at least not the way the other specs do (again, Rdruid + mobility). That's the major problem here, regardless of Holy's potential throughput.

Also, one guild calling HPallies the best doesn't prove anything. Even if they are, I'm not singling out Resto Druids, the similarities from Holy to Resto in terms of what they bring to a raid are striking. Play less of a victim and actually comprehend my post (or don't read it at all if you don't care for Holy Priests).


I still dont see the need to compare apples to oranges, and why select the resto druid as opossed to a class that is outperforming all others like the Holy Pally? It seems to be that you are attempting to divert attention away from Holy Pallies by singling out Resto Druids.

As for the rest of your post, I don't care for name calling. I admitted in my previous post there was a chance of me, misinterpreting your intentions. The tone on the second part of your post convinced me I was right all along.

Edit: The similarities between healers have been part of a homogenization process Blizzard started some time ago, from a very crude perspective in MoP all healers will bring similar utility to the encounters. Some healers will bring better utility in some encounters than others and the new talent system will make it so that there are combinations of talents and encounters that are not quite understood yet.

Thats why i feel generalizing about classes that are similar in utility and role but dissimilar in playstyle/toolset, at THIS stage of the expansion where their true potential lies undiscovered, is very irresponsible armchair theorycrafting.
Edited by Ethrundil on 7/30/2012 10:00 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
14625
07/30/2012 09:35 AMPosted by Indyana
Has there ever been an x-pac where Pallies weren't the best healer at the beginning, middle and end? At this point I'm starting to believe the conspiracy posts that say the devs keep Pally's so strong to appease the majority or players.


I don't exactly agree with your comment, but in lieu of the last posts, it certainly makes for an interesting theory.
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