DK Tanking Guide (5.1)

90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
You are basically giving yourself an extra "cd" to handle a DS gap (by adding a DS on demand), but you are making DS gaps happen slightly more often. I'd prefer the overall throughput of RE.
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
I guess you could think of it as hit capping vs not hit capping. Hit capping will add some reliability, but you will take more overall damage from sacrificing avoidance stats.

with hit capping you have to consider that dying to a string of missed death strikes is really uncommon even at 0 hit. With BT, you have to consider that dying from not having RE procs more controlled is also going to be very rare. This is why in both cases i choose overall dmg reduction (not hit capping and choosing RE)
90 Tauren Death Knight
7470
I guess you could think of it as hit capping vs not hit capping. Hit capping will add some reliability, but you will take more overall damage from sacrificing avoidance stats.

with hit capping you have to consider that dying to a string of missed death strikes is really uncommon even at 0 hit. With BT, you have to consider that dying from not having RE procs more controlled is also going to be very rare. This is why in both cases i choose overall dmg reduction (not hit capping and choosing RE)


Well this explains a lot of our disagreements, as I prefer hit and expertise soft cap at all times. I enjoy total control over my survivability. I guess at this point it is just a difference in how we like to play our DKs.
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
It's the difference of removing a DS gap entirely every so often (BT) and making DS gaps generally shorter overall(RE)
Edited by Reniat on 8/4/2012 6:36 PM PDT
90 Tauren Death Knight
7470
08/04/2012 06:36 PMPosted by Reniat
It's the difference of removing a DS gap entirely every so often (BT) and making DS gaps generally shorter overall(RE)


I didn't really want to get into this argument, but you seem keen on it so...

It's the difference of being 100% in control of your survivability (taking the responsibility of your mitigation upon yourself), and just hoping that the rng doesn't screw you over at a key moment, which it eventually will.
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
You're not in 100% control of your survivability with BT. You are still going to have DS gaps, so you are still going to rely on RNG through avoidance during those gaps. You can never avoid all full hits (Which is the worse case scenario for standard boss melee swings), which is why we need enough effective health to handle full hits before we do anything else with our stats. Im not saying BT isn't viable. Im just pointing out that its not like by choosing BT you are all of a sudden in complete control of your dmg intake and your mitigation, because that's not possible.

With BT you get less death strikes, but you can choose when a few of them happen better. Now factor in the fact that the whole reason you want to control your survivability in this manner is to minimize full hits, but that we should already have enough EH to handle those full hits because there is no amount of control where you can avoid a large enough amount of full hits to ignore them.

So you are investing in something that reduces the value of something we should already have taken steps to devalue.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't necessarily not value something that further devalues it, since just like you cant get enough control to completely neutralize full hits, you generally can't reach any level of EH or mitigation where you can ignore full hits either. I'm simply pointing out that by choosing BT over RE, you are not getting some huge level of control. It's a little bit in each direction. Both are viable.

EDIT: not trying to start an argument. They are both viable, so if you choose that little extra control at the cost of fewer death strikes then that is your choice and I won't try to persuade you otherwise.
Edited by Reniat on 8/5/2012 10:01 AM PDT
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
All of that is just dealing with progression bosses and their melee damage, and doesn't factor in any fight specific mechanics that may favor BT. Should a mechanic like that be present you would have to adjust accordingly.
Edited by Reniat on 8/5/2012 10:08 AM PDT
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
Updated guide to reflect BT change.
Edited by Reniat on 8/5/2012 11:12 AM PDT
90 Tauren Death Knight
7470
Hmm, interesting
90 Human Death Knight
7480
I'm not sure if any one has really noticed but the current Beta Build Roiling Blood is actually refreshing diseases on the main target even if there are no other targets in range of Blood Boil. Sacrificing 1 HS every 1min in my opinion is going to win out for the simple fact that's over a raid encounter(roughly 5minutes) is equal to 5 extra Death Strikes per fight making it a better talent for overall survivability. There's a gap in between Unholy Blight/Outbreak if my napkin math is correct but I just woke up so I doubt it is. So a Blood DK with RB will have roughly 2-3 more Death Strikes over a Blood DK with UB. I'll leave it to the community to decide.

Edit:
To anyone who is having issues with threat on AE Packs it's rather simple. If you're using to Roiling Blood spec DnD, Diseases, BB, tab HS, RS to bleed runic. I prefer the BT talent over RE due to the on demand runes. Refreshing diseases via BB or getting more HS/DS in for threat. I've gone through quite a few of the 5mans and never lost threat to anyone. Even higher level characters.
Edited by Ròkoe on 8/6/2012 7:38 AM PDT
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Only read the OP, and not any following discussion, which may make some of these points invalid. Will get there later.

Don't take my brevity as being displeased or angry.

I would also like to caution that I have had no exposure to actual Beta gameplay--just what my sims tell me.

08/01/2012 01:42 AMPosted by Reniat
The idea is that if we start it now it will be done by release.


The forums will likely be wiped on the transition. Keep a local copy.

Just quote yourself and save that into a file, as the quoting will also retain underlines/bold text/etc.

08/01/2012 01:43 AMPosted by Reniat
Rolling Blood:


I think your analysis here might be a little limited. You're only thinking of RB itself, not what RB can do when combined with other options, particularly Chilblains and Glyph of Pestilence. This will greatly affect your ability to kite/control adds, provided that they can be slowed.

It is, however, your best option when dealing with streaming adds.

08/01/2012 01:43 AMPosted by Reniat
Plague Leech:


Need to rerun this in my sim with BB now messing with the priority. PL was the best option for survivability when paired with Glyph of Outbreak and used every 30s before then. However, it was only about 3% better overall, which isn't a big deal, and it probably will be a decent DPS loss now, especially so with the BB change.

Lichborne:


Just want to point out that the AP coefficient on Death Coil has doubled, which makes Lichborne significantly more potent in MoP than it is now.

Need to see how Purgatory performs in real-time to actually determine how it compares to Lichborne. So far, I've heard it's not anywhere nearly as good as it seems.

Anti-Magic Zone:


Want to point out that AMZ scales with strength, not AP, which means this talent is actually stronger in the hands of a DPS, as it no longer gains with Vengeance, and DPS have much more strength than tanks.

Blood Tap:


Particularly strong when sudden, on-demand, DS's are important, or when there is a scripted event that happens quite regularly (<30s). It takes roughly 25s to get 10 charges (ie. an immediate DS), so for events that happen faster than that, you'll have to plan your normal rune regeneration rate around them to have a DS ready.

08/01/2012 01:45 AMPosted by Reniat
Runic Conversion:


This should be Runic Corruption.

RC setups do not take noticeably more damage than RE/BT setups. The difference is a little over half a DS/min. For T75, I think the deciding factor is how/when you get your DS's, not how much more/less damage you take, as the difference in damage taken between the three is minimal.

RE may net the most, but it also is random and provides only a single rune at a time. BT provides the flexibility of a single or double rune exactly when planned, provided you have charges. This can be handy when you need a single rune for something (ie. DnD), or an immediate DS. RC provides you with the most consistency and is the most passive. You can throttle your rune regeneration rate to accommodate any timing needs.

They all work; they're just all different.

Need to rerun with the new BB to see DPS discrepancies.
Edited by Euliat on 8/6/2012 11:35 AM PDT
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
08/01/2012 01:45 AMPosted by Reniat
Gorefiend's Grasp:


Would like to point out that this talent can be used to send adds away from you by targeting another player. This has some strong kiting / temporary relief implications, especially with Glyph of DnD and RB+Chilblains.

08/01/2012 01:46 AMPosted by Reniat
Glyph of Vampiric Blood


The distinction should probably be made here that unglyphed VB is typically more useful in progression settings, where you are more likely to need the extra health granted by VB because the hits are much higher relative to your HP pool.

08/01/2012 01:46 AMPosted by Reniat
Glyph of Death Grip


Not sure why this is listed.

08/01/2012 01:46 AMPosted by Reniat
Glyph of Death Coil


The absorb generated from this is trash, and I don't believe it stacks. My i509 set, which has no enchants and is not using consumables, has 540k HP and 72k AP at capped Vengeance. The absorb generated is only ~36k, which is less than 8% of your HP. A minimum DS is better.

DC also costs 40 RP, and does not proc RE/RC, but I believe it still adds BT stacks. Maybe not, but the cost is steep for a very small absorb.

I would think these glyphs should be covered or just stated (and you have some of them), not because they are good or bad, but because they will frequently pose questions:

-Glyph of AMS (good for singular, bad for sustained)
-Glyph of IBF (good for singular and often, bad for sustained)
-Glyph of DnD (add/singular control from range, costs DS)
-Glyph of IT (if they make offensive dispels useful fairly often; primarily 5-mans)
-Glyph of Pestilence (extra distance for adds)
-Glyph of VB (useful when damage is not high)
-Glyph of Outbreak (chain pulling only)
-Glyph of DRW (if AoE threat is an issue)
-Glyph of Death Coil (too little for a high cost)

Descriptions need not be extensive, and probably should not be. People want answers, not essays.

Of that list, for tanking, I would consider these to be valid choices (barring gimmick mechanics):

-DnD
-Pest
-VB
-AMS (for singular events)

Should AoE threat be problematic, Glyph of DRW is valid.
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
08/01/2012 01:49 AMPosted by Reniat
There isn't a numerical stat weight for blood stats, but here is the general stat priority.


Will have the order for these later, but I will not be giving out specific values. Hit/expertise affect the overall scale much more in MoP than Cata. It may or may not be worth it.

08/01/2012 01:49 AMPosted by Reniat
i'm going to quick run down the benefits of Hit/exp.


Should be noted that having hit/expertise allows you to DS exactly when you want to more often, instead of having it be delayed. This adds an element of reliability. If EH is not a concern, then hit/expertise capping is not really important.

08/01/2012 01:49 AMPosted by Reniat
It is important to note that you want to balance the VALUES not the percentages when dealing with Diminishing Returns.


You would balance the post-DR % values. When the parry given by strength is shown more clearly (in the works), balancing will be easier.

08/01/2012 01:49 AMPosted by Reniat
Stamina VS Mastery


First paragraph is fine. The second paragraph is quite long and needs to be shortened, even though the content is fine.

Having higher health can make your healers perceive that you are taking less % damage at any given time (you are still being hit for the same raw amount), which can have the effect of making you seem less spiky, but they will have to heal you more overall. Some play-styles and healers cannot handle spike damage at all. Some are fine with it.

Make sure the issue is actually gear and not your play-style. Changing your gear is not nearly as effective at addressing problems as analyzing and correcting your play-style deficiencies.

Look at what kills you. If your deaths are abrupt and due to a huge amount of damage (that you aren't supposed to use cooldowns for), stamina may be more effective.

08/01/2012 01:50 AMPosted by Reniat
Reforging:


This can and should be shortened.

1. Reforge to mastery if possible.
2a. If mastery is not possible, reforge to dodge or parry according to DR.
2b. Depending on personal preference, reforge to hit/expertise. [This being under the assumption that hit/expertise are not worth it on the overall scale]

08/01/2012 01:50 AMPosted by Reniat
Enchanting:


Personally, I would not link all the items. With every new patch or profession change, you will have to update all of these links.

This applies to your professions as well (you can just say the top two beneficial ones).

Just tell people what to look for (in this order):
1. Mastery (but not via DPS enchants if a tank one is possible)
2. Stamina
3. Dodge/parry

Runeforge:


TBD. Likely still SS for overall damage reduction.
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
08/01/2012 01:51 AMPosted by Reniat
(Euliat if it's ok with you I would like to use your Understanding Death Strike and Mastery here)


Will need to be updated to accommodate T75, but that's fine.

08/01/2012 01:51 AMPosted by Reniat
(target has 35% or more health) Heart Strike>Heart Strike>Blood Boil


>, <, and = in priorities are generally connoted with precedence, not linear order. Change > to ---> to be more clear that you are illustrating an order, not a precedence pattern.

08/01/2012 01:51 AMPosted by Reniat
Blood Boil vs Heart Strike


If 5 or more adds, BB. Else, HS.
http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee434/euliat-wow/MoP/TPS.png

08/01/2012 01:52 AMPosted by Reniat
Use FU runes (including combos of F U and D runes) on Death strike as described above, keep only 1 blood rune on CD using Heart Strike/Blood Boil/Soul Reaper, Dump Runic Power with Rune Strike, make sure you always have diseases on targets you are tanking.


Would like to point out that you are assuming your readers will take RE with your suggestion about blood rune usage. This is likely not going to be the case. It will either be RC or BT.

08/01/2012 01:52 AMPosted by Reniat
For AoE:

Likely, readers will want a list, not a paragraph for priorities.

1. DnD on cooldown
2. Tab DS
3. Tab RS
4. Tab HS / use BB
5. Diseases and Pestilence after threat is established

Tabbing should be done intelligently, prioritizing targets with the lowest threat.

Applying diseases with IT+PS+Pestilence requires 3 GCDs (or 2 with RB) during which you generate nearly no AoE threat at all and abysmal single-target threat. Diseases can generally be safely skipped in 5-mans, which places them on a much lower priority.

08/01/2012 01:52 AMPosted by Reniat
Cooldowns


Not really a fan of recommending to get the max uses of a cooldown per fight (I know you later recommend something else). They should be used intelligently.

Would recommend saying what the cooldowns are particularly effective against or when they are typically most effective instead, and letting the reader decide when to use them.
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Additional Note:

While explaining why you chose/said whatever you said is good for defensibility purposes, when you're making a guide, most of your readers just want the answer, not to read how that answer was obtained (some will, though). Lengthier discussions should be saved for topics that can't be simply summarized (like should you use diseases or not, how to use DS, etc.). Some discussion is fine (and the current sticky has some), but the answer is usually presented first and clearly, and then followed by that discussion (which can be skipped), instead of having the answer hidden within the discussion (which cannot be skipped).

You can have a link to the lengthier discussions about a particular topic, but those should be left out of the main body.

This would be the motive behind some of my shortening recommendations.

As always, you're welcome to disagree with what I said; just give me your reasons so I can understand better.
Edited by Euliat on 8/6/2012 11:50 AM PDT
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
@Euliat I really appreciate the input. I have a friend's bachelor party to get ready for tonight, but I will try to go through your posts in more detail and update the guide and/or bring up things for discussion sometime tomorrow. From what i skimmed this is exactly the kind of stuff i wanted feedback on, so looking forward to digging in.

08/06/2012 07:23 AMPosted by Ròkoe
I'm not sure if any one has really noticed but the current Beta Build Roiling Blood is actually refreshing diseases on the main target even if there are no other targets in range of Blood Boil.

Blood Boil now refreshes diseases on anything it hits. So that's just BB not rolling blood :)
Edited by Reniat on 8/6/2012 2:30 PM PDT
90 Human Death Knight
7480
Hmm I must be retarded then. I haven't had much time with the Beta but thank you for clarifying.
100 Draenei Death Knight
17940
Keeping things simple in the main Article will help. Death Knights as a class is tricky and even rotations will change in scenarios based on the talents they choose for MoP. The real fine line when it's wordy is also having the guide still feeling neutral ability wise. Feel free to leave out things we will never use like glyphs that don't help a Blood DK at all. Giving them links to deeper discussions will be handy to. For example many will go to the Blood Sticky when they're wanting to start being a Tank. The ones wanting a deeper insight into abilities or CD's can find and click the links to further understand the more in depth pros and cons.

I'm not fond of stated rotations as a DK anyway. That can tend to lock mindsets of players when DK can really feel more like a constantly changing priority and not a true rotation. Part of the reason I really enjoy playing a DK.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12395
Rolling Blood (Hefizar pay attention, as this is also an answer to you)
This looks attractive for 5m content at first glance, but look at what you actually gain and it starts to fall apart. You pull adds, you use outbreak>blood boil to spread diseases. You now have all targets infected with the tank debuff and you only used 1 blood rune. From here on out the benefit of Rolling Blood is 0, since as long as you use BB to refresh the diseases on all targets you wouldn't have needed to pest after the initial one anyway. Total benefit from that talent = 1 blood rune over the whole fight.

Compare this to Unholy Blight, which affects all adds with the debuff free, so you didn't have to pestilence or blood boil to spread diseases. The scenario with Rolling Blood also got in dmg from a BB, but with unholy blight you can use a heart strike with that B rune instead, which will give you more aoe threat/dmg if there are not too many adds. If there are a lot of adds then you would BB anyway making them equal. This puts UB > RB (but not by much. A lot of these talents just happen to be the lesser of 3 evils)

Might have missed something, but I didn't see anyone point out the potential problem with this; Challenge Modes. Specs will more than likely not really mean anything in a standard 5 man, but with a Challenge Mode, you're probably going to want Roiling Blood, not Unholy Blight as that ends up being the difference between "Ok, one guy left let's get the next group and BB them" and "Uh, give me like 10 seconds. UB's not ready yet and I don't want to die."
So, with that in mind, you may want to consider something like http://mop.wowhead.com/mists-of-pandaria-talent-calculator#kLH as a suggestion for Challenge Modes
90 Tauren Death Knight
7470
Damn Euliat, you should write your own guide!

Thanks for the defense of Blood Tap. Do you know if you can still game it to give you a DS by having all frost and unholy runes on CD and at least one blood free?


Might have missed something, but I didn't see anyone point out the potential problem with this; Challenge Modes. Specs will more than likely not really mean anything in a standard 5 man, but with a Challenge Mode, you're probably going to want Roiling Blood, not Unholy Blight as that ends up being the difference between "Ok, one guy left let's get the next group and BB them" and "Uh, give me like 10 seconds. UB's not ready yet and I don't want to die."
So, with that in mind, you may want to consider something like http://mop.wowhead.com/mists-of-pandaria-talent-calculator#kLH as a suggestion for Challenge Modes


I have been considering a kiting spec for challenge modes. E.g. Pull a whole room of adds, Gorefiends Grasp them together, drop a dnd with slow glyphed, use outbreak, and spread frostfever/chilblains using rolling boil. Of course, not being on the beta I haven't tested something like this. Does anyone know a reason why this would or wouldn't work?
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