DK Tanking Guide (5.1)

90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
08/11/2012 01:04 PMPosted by Hefizar
I don't know if that was taken into account on those damage calculations


Yes, it was.

08/11/2012 01:00 PMPosted by Hefizar
Keep in mind that BS doesn't absorb spell damage, so maybe an encounter of heavy spell damage could make Siphon viable.


With the exception of Yor'sahj, every encounter so far that has had threatening magical damage also has a physical component present. The absorb is still valuable.

08/11/2012 01:00 PMPosted by Hefizar
What I am getting from this is that Siphon has a real possibility to out dps HS. Is that correct?


With the current implementation of Vengeance, yes. 2% is likely too high, as tanks very realistically can be looking at having upwards of 130k+ AP.
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
08/11/2012 01:00 PMPosted by Hefizar
I don't think anyone is suggesting that. In almost every situation, Death Strike is superior to Siphon, it is our best all around self heal. However, tanks gear for the encounter, and if there is a possibility that a new encounter requires ranged self heals, max dps from every source, or heavy spell damage, then I think that a new mechanic like this (ranged self heals) is worth discussion.

If there ends up being a fight where ranged self heals are a factor then of course siphon will come to the table, but i can't even remember a real raid situation where i had to take meaningful sustained damage but couldn't be in melee range of the target.
90 Draenei Death Knight
15340
08/11/2012 01:22 PMPosted by Reniat
I don't think anyone is suggesting that. In almost every situation, Death Strike is superior to Siphon, it is our best all around self heal. However, tanks gear for the encounter, and if there is a possibility that a new encounter requires ranged self heals, max dps from every source, or heavy spell damage, then I think that a new mechanic like this (ranged self heals) is worth discussion.

If there ends up being a fight where ranged self heals are a factor then of course siphon will come to the table, but i can't even remember a real raid situation where i had to take meaningful sustained damage but couldn't be in melee range of the target.


Only fight that really comes to mind is the caster on Twin Emps. That is just cause he constantly punts/snares. But that is vanilla based content. Always able to death strike the bugs around to heal anyway on that old content.
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
By the way I don't want to come across as "this isnt viable for a "normal" raid situation therefore i don't care" when it comes to these situational things that get brought into discussion. The main section of the guide is meant to be readily accessable to ANYONE looking to learn blood dk, so i'm not going to add clutter by adding a bunch of situational things. If the situation that favors something is common enough i will mention it, though otherwise the rare stuff will get left out of the main guide. The reason i bring this up is that I do plan on adding a section for the bosses of the current tier, so any situational thing that comes up in a tier will be addressed. If there is a boss in a tier where we want to use siphon you'd better believe i'll recommend that in the boss section of the guide, so don't think i'm just dismissing stuff.
90 Tauren Death Knight
7470
I agree, it isn't something you will normally use at all. It just seemed like an interesting mechanic to use
86 Night Elf Death Knight
11870
Ignacious in T11 and Yorsahj in T13 are two good examples of bosses that frequently had capped blood shields. Other possibilities where it would have been useful would be on Maloriak adds, Al'akir (both for generating threat on Stormlings as they spawn, but more for P3), Frost phase in Hagara, and probably others I haven't thought of OTOH.

I'm not in any way stating that DSiphon is likely to be better than DS, I'm just highlighting situations in which it could be. Discounting something that is useless in 95% of cases is how people didn't have Blood Strike on their bars and had Blade Barrier drop off during trash pulls when CC was still required.

I'm probably not going to use it for PvE, but if you're going to decry something as not worth taking, it's best to understand the limitations of your statement.

On a side-note, other non-PvE possiblities would be use while disarmed, and that the self-heal scales with external damage buffs like Berserking.
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
I'm not going to say there never will be a situation where you would use siphon over death strike, nor have I. see:
08/11/2012 05:48 PMPosted by Reniat
If there is a boss in a tier where we want to use siphon you'd better believe i'll recommend that in the boss section of the guide, so don't think i'm just dismissing stuff.

You have to consider that it's not just if it becomes an option versus death strike, but that it becomes a good enough option that it's worth using compared to death strike and worth the cost of another healing cooldown. Any situation where the larger healing from a high AP siphon would outweigh a normal death strike, you would likely have even more benefit from a Death Pact if it's infrequent enough. If it's sustained magic damage then conversion might be a better option as well, depending on the nature of the magic damage. (see what i did there? "nature" of the "magic" damage?).

Sustained magic damage (such as a dot) might see benefit from conversion, but spikier magic damage might favor siphon. If there is a boss with spiky magic damage and low enough physical damage to see consistent shield caps I will definitely give a through analysis of siphon for that fight and if I find it has use, then i'll include it in that boss's section in the guide, though outside of not only magic damage fights (which are specific) but a certain type of magic fight (even rarer) I don't see enough value in siphon to trade one of our other healing cooldowns. This highly situational value (value though it may be) makes me less inclined to write anything up in the main body of the guide, since as i said before it is info that new DKs who have no interest in specific boss fights would rather not have to process while learning the other class basics.
86 Night Elf Death Knight
11870
I don't see how a rotational ability (something that has no CD and uses runes) should be compared to a cooldown (Death Pact having a 2 minute CD). That said, I accept that this guide may not be the best place to discuss specific situations niche abilities can be used in to good effect.
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
08/11/2012 10:32 PMPosted by Nightshatter
I don't see how a rotational ability (something that has no CD and uses runes) should be compared to a cooldown (Death Pact having a 2 minute CD)

Because the only way to get siphon is by sacrificing either Death Pact or Conversion, as the 3 share a tier of talents. When weighing the options you have to consider the cost of gaining that ability.
08/11/2012 10:32 PMPosted by Nightshatter
That said, I accept that this guide may not be the best place to discuss specific situations niche abilities can be used in to good effect.

We can discuss it and i encourage people to do so, but I'm just saying why I'm not going to include ALL of the info we glean from discussions into the guide itself in order to prevent clutter and unnecessary info making it harder to understand the basics of the guide.
Edited by Reniat on 8/11/2012 10:57 PM PDT
86 Night Elf Death Knight
11870
You would compare the relative gain of the two talents, yes. However I don't see how the situations in which you would use DSiphon is one in which DP isn't directly applicable, and vice versa. Conversion could certainly be compared to DSiphon as it's a use of rotational resources.

If you're going to take DP because you need/want a cooldown, then having a rotational ability will not fill the place of a cooldown. If you want to say that you're comparing it and DSiphon is being discarded that could be accurate, but I'd state it as not even being comparable.
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
I'm simply trying to point out that many of the situations you mentioned that favored siphon also favored the (generally) more powerful CDs of that tier, and if you just looked at siphon vs death strike without any context of how you get siphon then you can't get any practicable info. I still want to make it clear that i'm not saying siphon won't have situational value, i'm just trying to play devil's advocate and point out that the situations where it truly is the best options are limited.
86 Night Elf Death Knight
11870
Don't get me wrong, I understand what your intent is, but I respectfully disagree.
Let's review what I said, and then add in the context of choice from the tier:
- Does a 2 minute cooldown suit the situation more than a rotational ability?
- Does converting RP to HP via Conversion generate more survivability for the situation than Death Runes to HP via DSiphon rather than DS?
Both questions will be examined from the same assumptions from the original statements, and also with the assumption that Conversion is worth considering taking in the first place.

08/10/2012 07:51 PMPosted by Nightshatter
If 2xDSiphon > 1xDS, then that might devalue Mastery, possibly increase the value of Haste.

The situation doesn't modify the choice for a cooldown or rotational ability, so DP has no added value. Mastery doesn't effect Conversion. Haste will have a small increase in RP generated, so which gains a higher relative benefit between Conversion or DSiphon from Haste is worth investigating.

08/10/2012 07:51 PMPosted by Nightshatter
DS and DSiphon will scale differently with effects that increase healing done, as the absorb amount is generated from pre-VB numbers.

Also effects Conversion and Death Pact. Uncertain if increased healing and health pool (both from unglyphed VB would double dip for these. Once again, worth investigating, this time for both DP and Conversion.

08/10/2012 07:51 PMPosted by Nightshatter
Damage per Rune on the two abilities may be enough of an incentive to use DSiphon during periods of lower damage.

Conversion is a DPS loss, DP is a DPS loss from lowered ghoul uptime. DSiphon wins hands down.

08/10/2012 07:51 PMPosted by Nightshatter
DSiphon may be much more efficient to use than DS if there is little to no physical damage in a fight, where DS's absorb would be pointless.

The situation doesn't modify the choice for a cooldown or rotational ability, so DP has no added value. Conversion is worth investigating for the cost of less T75 procs to fund DS (or, DSiphon) vs. healing gained.

08/10/2012 07:51 PMPosted by Nightshatter
DSiphon can be used while kiting.

The situation doesn't modify the choice for a cooldown or rotational ability, so DP has no added value. Conversion may be used while kiting, but only with existing resources; Conversion does not make any resources that were previously unusable while kiting suddenly usable. DSiphon allows the consumption of runes at range to generate RP, while Conversion allows the consumption of RP to generate health.
I would posit the most effective way to compare Conversion and DSiphon while kiting would be by how much kiting uptime is required between the two; while using DSiphon would require 2 GCDs in melee range every 32~ seconds (from an 8~ second rune regen rate for simplicity), Conversion would either require spending no runes on mitigation (IT, BB and DnD on runes) or 2 GCDs in melee range every 16~ seconds.

Hope that properly compares my points against the opportunity cost of the tier.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10755
08/13/2012 12:19 AMPosted by Nightshatter
Conversion is a DPS loss, DP is a DPS loss from lowered ghoul uptime. DSiphon wins hands down.


Unless there's crazy aoe damage going on, your ghoul won't die.
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
08/13/2012 12:19 AMPosted by Nightshatter
The situation doesn't modify the choice for a cooldown or rotational ability

You're painting some pretty broad strokes. Even if there is 0 physical damage, it all depends on how you are taking the magic damage. Spikier/infrequent damage may favor siphon, but siphon won't be very frequent. If DS is used at ~8/min, siphon isn't going to be 16/min. There are some clunky mechanics involved with getting D runes back without using any more D runes on Death Strike. Basically if you don't have any F U pairs to turn into D runes with a death strike, you have to wait for Blood Tap, which would require 2.5 rune strikes per 1 D rune, which is 75 RP. Your RP gen is going to greatly affect how much you are able to siphon in a given time frame.

In other words, for consistent amounts of magic damage (such as a DoT or something) it may be best to use conversion combined with heals from Death Strike. The shield may not be useful, but the combo of conversion and death strike will provide a decent amount of both consistent healing and small burst healing.

TL;DR even if you are in a situation where the shield from DS is useless (again, SUPER rare) siphon isn't automatically the go to choice. It is a choice, im not saying it isnt viable, but there are (in my opinion) other routes to go even in a rare situation like this.

EDIT: oh yeah, and what haji said. Ghoul doesn't die anymore. siphon still provides the most dps out of the three talents, but how much is yet to be determined, as well as the fact that tank damage during progression is a low priority behind staying alive.
Edited by Reniat on 8/13/2012 10:23 AM PDT
86 Night Elf Death Knight
11870
Please keep in context my original post said that these were situations where DSiphon could be worth using, may be worth using, should be considered. Of course it's broad strokes, I'm describing general situations.
I'm also not describing the method of rune regen, only the choice of spending resources on either DS or DSiphon. If you're getting those from BT or Blood Rites shouldn't matter for the scope of the statement.

I suspect in the end that, assuming DS is not as viable as one of the other options, that whether Conversion or DSiphon is better will depend on total incoming damage, as Conversion will not scale with Vengeance.

I've never stated that DSiphon should be a go to choice. I've described situations in which the use of DSiphon should be considered, nothing more.

RE: DP, good point, that I had forgotten. Do we know if the ghoul has 90% less damage taken from AoE sources? If so, I think it's a safe assumption that it's not going to die during it's use.
And even then, that doesn't change the statement only being in favour of DSiphon, as DP does not increase DPS (even if it doesn't lower it, only keeping it neutral).
Edited by Nightshatter on 8/13/2012 12:38 PM PDT
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
08/13/2012 11:48 AMPosted by Nightshatter
I've described situations in which the use of DSiphon should be considered, nothing more.

Fair enough. I don't agree with all the situations but I do agree that siphon, like all situational abilities, should be at least considered whenever there is a chance that it would have use. Like I've stated before, I think that siphon being good enough of an option to justify it would be a rare enough situation that I'm not going to include any detailed way in the main bulk of the guide to prevent clutter, though I will be including it in the boss guide section if there is an encounter that warrants siphon's consideration.
86 Night Elf Death Knight
11870
08/13/2012 01:23 PMPosted by Reniat
though I will be including it in the boss guide section if there is an encounter that warrants siphon's consideration.


This definitely seems like the best option.
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5955
Great post, definitely deserves a sticky. I have posted a link to my youtube page where I have some new PTR footage with Death Knight Tanking, as well as a very basic look at the new talents and abilities.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Kyrielz?feature=mhee
90 Tauren Druid
13505
I think this should be on page 1. Yeah.

Sticky requested.
90 Tauren Death Knight
7470
What are your views on Hit and Expertise cap? I personally get a lot of forum grief (from non DKs) for reforging into hit and expertise, "DPS Meatshield" is my favorite. I understand how for any other tank, reforging out of defensive stats into offensive ones is a bad idea, but in 4.3, 100% hit chance of Death Strike is a defensive stat.

With MoP coming soon, and DS becoming unparryable, I think that a lack of expertise camp will be the sign of a bad tank. Do you agree with me that hit/expertise will be a significant part of tanking? (And more importantly, all the forum haters will eat their words)

Taste my gem rainbow!
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