DK Tanking Guide (5.1)

90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
Just going of what H raid testing i could do in the beta (not a beta friendly work schedule) I didn't find that 0 hit/exp was harmful, though i also didn't find that the loss of stats from hit/exp capping was necessarily as noticeable either. Sorry but hit/exp still arent "signs of a good tank" :)

Based on personal experience in the beta, here is how I will personally be prioritizing in MoP, though it doesn't necessarily mean it's "right". I didn't focus on capping, but din't necessarily avoid hit/exp either. If i had to put a strict list on it, i would put it about equal to my highest DR avoidance stat, and below my lowest. So in Dragon Soul that would be Mastery>Dodge=hit/exp>parry. There is nothing mathematically special about that, but it's about where I felt the most comfortable in the somewhat brief testing i was able to do.

As far as the research i've done and the experience i've got in the beta, both capping and not capping are still viable, which makes in entirely up to personal preference. again.

EDIT: ill throw in an example. Lets say you got a piece that had mastery and dodge on it, and your dodge value was above your parry (so you'd want to reforge from dodge to parry for DR). If i felt I had a healthy amount of Hit/exp, then i would reforge into parry. If i felt I could afford some avoidance for some hit/exp, I'd put it into exp, or hit if i have reached the soft cap of 26 on exp. There is no "right answer", and it's entirely subjective. It's going to take a bit of playing around with them to figure out where you will want to prioritize them.
Edited by Reniat on 8/15/2012 9:41 PM PDT
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Overall survivability gearing priority:
Mastery >> Parry >= Dodge >>> Haste >> Hit = Expertise

Details to come later.

Hit/expertise capping reduces the damage you take by around 2%, assuming you didn't reduce any of your other stats to cap. This is likely still going to be a debated topic for the same reasons it was debated in Cataclysm. Thanks to Vengeance, hit/expertise capping is quite a significant DPS increase and very well may be worth the survivability loss.

[edit: flipped dodge/parry]
Edited by Euliat on 8/16/2012 10:37 PM PDT
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
Mastery >> avoidance >> Haste >> Hit = Expertise

I agree that this will result in the most damage reduction over the course of a fight, though it doesn't take much dodge/parry sacrificed to get a decent amount of hit/exp. the RNG of getting 20% more on a well timed shield is about equal the RNG loss of less avoidance in my opinion. I don't think sacrificing enough avoidance to hit/exp cap is a good idea, especially at low levels of gear, but I think I would still value getting a decent amount of hit/exp at least, and certainly would prioritize it above haste. TL;DR, lower dmg isn't everything. Not saying that you were saying that, but still.

08/16/2012 07:58 PMPosted by Euliat
Dodge >= Parry

from what i've looked at in terms of DR curves, dodge will only outweigh parry at very low levels of gear at 90, and parry will start to outweigh dodge until we reach each cap (theoretically) and parry will be ~3.6 times more valueble than an equivalent amount in dodge. I had intended to update the guide to be more descriptive than "3x more than dodge" since that only applies at a certain ilvl, but I'm still pretty sure parry is worth more than dodge at any reasonable amount of avoidance. I am certainly not right 100% of the time (far from it), so lets hit the math. What DR formulas are you working off of that puts dodge>parry overall in mop?

EDIT: holy typing batman, so many spelling errors!
Edited by Reniat on 8/16/2012 10:28 PM PDT
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
08/16/2012 10:27 PMPosted by Reniat
What DR formulas are you working off of that puts dodge>parry overall in mop?


The weights I generated have error bounds, and dodge/parry overlap. I thought it the dodge DR was more lax than the parry DR, so I put dodge >= parry. The reverse is true, so I can flip that.

Either way, the difference between the two isn't large enough to detect in the initial tier.

Dodge = (round(100*(1/65.631440+.885/(DodgeRating/880))^(-1))/100);
Parry = (round(100*(1/235.5+.885/(((StrengthFromGear - BaseStrength)/951.158596)+(ParryRating/880)))^(-1))/100);


BaseStrength is around 206, depending on race. Base dodge is 3.01%, and base parry is 3.00%, which should be added to those, respectively.
Edited by Euliat on 8/16/2012 10:38 PM PDT
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
Ok so were going off the same formulas, and since you've switched to parry>=dodge we don't disagree anymore. I do recognize that I was assuming an avoidance amount way higher than achievable in the first tier, and so my difference between them was quite off. Ill change it from 3xparry>dodge to parry>=dodge, since the former won't be true until possibly the 3rd tier of the expansion (it would require close to 30% post-DR dodge)
Edited by Reniat on 8/16/2012 11:03 PM PDT
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
08/16/2012 10:27 PMPosted by Reniat
I don't think sacrificing enough avoidance to hit/exp cap is a good idea, especially at low levels of gear, but I think I would still value getting a decent amount of hit/exp at least, and certainly would prioritize it above haste.


I wouldn't agree with that, but I also haven't seen how important healer mana is in MoP. You don't need to reach some avoidance floor before you can start actively going for hit/expertise. Sure, you might not want to fully cap them, but picking some up is going to be well worth the gain in DPS, especially under the new Vengeance model.

A +10% DPS gain (pre-disease buff) along with increased reliability of DS for a small survivability loss isn't something that's a very simple call.
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
08/17/2012 12:26 AMPosted by Euliat
A +10% DPS gain (pre-disease buff) along with increased reliability of DS for a small survivability loss isn't something that's a very simple call.

never said it was. That's why I leave it up to personal preference, since which style is "best" will largely come down to not only your own play style but your healers as well. I do still think that choosing to cap them at early levels of gear shouldn't be taken lightly, though if healer mana doesn't end up being as much of an issue then obviously this will affect how we prioritize hit/exp vs. avoidance.
Edited by Reniat on 8/17/2012 1:02 AM PDT
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
08/16/2012 07:58 PMPosted by Euliat
Details to come later.


Quoting myself:
"In the case of multiple ">'s", one ">" represents around a +25% additive increase from right to left (i.e. >> means +50%). So, if you calculate that mastery is about 4 times as effective as hit/expertise, you're on the right track."

This order was generated by looking at the decrease in damage taken as well as factoring in the increase in healing done, with arbitrary weights applied to both of those factors (65/35%, respectively). In all likelihood, the weight on the healing increase will be very small, but that won't change the order stated above.

Initially, avoidance builds will probably be fine, but mastery should scale much better, so as the expansion progresses, barring gimmick mechanics, avoidance builds should become less common.

So, basically, how you reforge and how you enchant doesn't change from Cata to Mists.
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Also should point out that BB is significantly more powerful due to the new Vengeance and CS. In 25-player raids, it very well could be DPS-neutral with HS for single-target.

It should also be better than HS in just about any AoE scenario now (n > 2), provided targets are diseased.
Edited by Euliat on 8/17/2012 1:55 AM PDT
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
Even with CS at 20% down from 40%?
90 Draenei Death Knight
6315
Did somebody miss the whole idea of the new talent system? There is no such thing as "This is the spec for 5 mans/raids/ect." anymore. Every person gets to choose their own talents, and it makes no diffrence.
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
It's closer to a system where the talents are simply playstyle options, but there are still "better" options than others. Take AMZ in tier 2 for example. It is not as useful for a tank when compared to either lichborne or purgatory. Now there is a success in that choosing between those 2 cooldowns will come down to what kind of damage intake you are receiving, so in that manner they did make the talents more flexible, but there is still a best option for each situation. Lichborne will be better for certain situations (sustained heavy damage) and purgatory will be better to others (spike damage, which is a big issue during hardcore progression).
Edited by Reniat on 8/17/2012 2:07 PM PDT
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
08/17/2012 09:02 AMPosted by Reniat
Even with CS at 20% down from 40%?


Yes.
86 Night Elf Death Knight
11870
08/17/2012 04:02 PMPosted by Seraphion
So Purgatory...hope someone is developing a raid announcement addon for when it goes off. :3


I'm assuming Wakespam will work with it.
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
08/17/2012 02:47 PMPosted by Euliat
Yes.
So help me figure out what AP is needed to surpass HS for single target. Blood Boil's damage is calculated with with
((790+.192*AP)*1.5)*1.2
heart strike's dmg is calculated with
(3285.4+(AP/14)*3.3)*1.30
both assuming diseases on the target and using a 463 ilvl 2h weapon.

If i did my math right (and both of the above formulas are right) it would take about 72.7k AP to make them equal. Is this right?
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Against a boss, raid debuffed, with both diseases present:

BB = ((711 + 869) / 2 + 0.192 * AP) * (1 + 0.50) * (1 + 0.20) * (1 + 0.05)

HS = (((Tooltip_Min + Tooltip_Max) / 2 + 3.3 * AP / 14) * 1.50 + 1122) * (1 + 2 * 0.15) * (1 - 0.3209) * (1 + .04)


Tooltip_Min = 9462
Tooltip_Max = 14194

You pulled the DPS of the weapon, not the strike damage.

It'll take like 410k AP to make them equal, but BB will be doing pretty comparable damage even at significantly lower AP values. I likely still had CS at 40% when I tested it earlier, as that surpasses HS at around 160k AP, which you definitely will see.
Edited by Euliat on 8/17/2012 6:39 PM PDT
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
08/17/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Euliat
You pulled the DPS of the weapon, not the strike damage.

oops
08/17/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Euliat
It'll take like 410k AP to make them equal, but BB will be doing pretty comparable damage even at significantly lower AP values.

so HS still does more single target dps since 410k AP is unreachable? They may get close at low levels of AP, but if its still more dmg to HS instead of BB then there's no reason to use BB other than refreshing diseases unless there are 2 or more targets.
Edited by Reniat on 8/17/2012 7:05 PM PDT
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
08/17/2012 07:04 PMPosted by Reniat
so HS still does more single target dps since 410k AP is unreachable?


I never said you'd fully replace HS with BB. I just said the margins would be much closer, however, they've now changed coefficients again according to datamined information.

You'll still use HS for single-target. For pretty much anything else, you'll use BB.
90 Tauren Death Knight
8920
08/17/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Euliat
(1 - 0.3209) * (1 + .04)

08/17/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Euliat
(1 + 0.05)

I'm familiar with everything in those formulas except for these values. I assume that (1 - 0.3209) would be the bosses armor, but i'm not sure where the 1.04 or the 1.05 (HS and BB respectively) are coming from.
Edited by Reniat on 8/17/2012 8:21 PM PDT
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