Healer test dummy

90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
09/09/2012 11:58 AMPosted by Morenn
When I think of dummies, my mind immediately goes to what the ones that exist are for... and that is testing rotations. :/


I guess Disc Atonement style is the only area where I think it gets muddled, because you almost have a DPS rotation that complements your healing style. Especially now that Priests have a Twist of Fate talent, that could really benefit from some testing to see if a ticking Shadow Word: Pain can cause it a huge uptime, thus increasing the Atonement style.

It's not about testing a healing rotation, it's about theorycrafting / simcrafting different talents. I'm not really worried about Holy Fire, Smite, Smite, Smite, Smite, Penace, I'm worried about if dropping a Smite for a Shadow Word: Pain with the Twisted Fate talent can do more overall healing than Power Word Infusion every 2 minutes. Does it have a bigger benefit for a 12 minute fight versus a 5 minute fight?

That's really what I think a healing dummy would be for, more than "Am I casting my healing spells in the correct order?"

Especially when it may come down a decision of "is atonement healing effective when people are at 90%, 80%, 50% based on my current gear?" That's something that I think you could test on a dummy without seeing DBM say, "you've wiped to Heroic Spine 125 times" (no joke, I know I'm over 125 wipes.)

But again, I think until we really understand HOW a healing dummy should work then the merits / flaws of one is really kinda moot. I think that's why we as a group get into the discussion as to concept. Maybe if we discussed how one should works, then we'd might get some better debate.
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09/09/2012 01:59 PMPosted by Feythylan
That's really what I think a healing dummy would be for, more than "Am I casting my healing spells in the correct order?"


Yes, that's what it would NEED to be to be of use. Which brings us back full circle to "Should dev time/money be put into making dummies that act like people when the same thing can be accomplished just using actual people in a dungeon/raid?"

edit: My opinion is that devs should work on things we *can't* do ourselves.
Edited by Morenn on 9/9/2012 2:19 PM PDT
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I actually have a similar thing I want to test once I get to 90 -- if Dream of Cenarius increases my heals done after attacking, is it feasible or reasonable to stand in melee auto-attacking the boss while I mouseover-heal people? Since afaik most instant-cast spells don't interrupt your swing timer. That's something I can easily test on a dummy.

In fact, the only reason you couldn't test Twist of Fate on a dummy is because it's sensitive to HP levels. But that means it will also be extremely sensitive to fight mechanics -- how many targets will you have below 20%, and how often? In fact, the uptime on Twist of Fate is 100% determined by fight mechanics. To really model it using dummies, you'd need dummies that imitated a variety of fights. :/
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09/09/2012 03:34 PMPosted by Heartsings
if Dream of Cenarius increases my heals done after attacking, is it feasible or reasonable to stand in melee auto-attacking the boss while I mouseover-heal people?


I am 99% sure it is melee abilities rather than melee (ie rip/rake/mangle/etc) so auto attacks would have no affect.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
I'm opposed to healing dummies because unless it is an actual simulation of a raid environment (which is redundant and a waste of space since you can just do 5mans/lfr), 9x out of 10 it's going to teach the healer the WRONG things to do.
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90 Troll Druid
9130
I'm opposed to healing dummies because unless it is an actual simulation of a raid environment (which is redundant and a waste of space since you can just do 5mans/lfr), 9x out of 10 it's going to teach the healer the WRONG things to do.


Basically one of the many reasons I am against it, we have enough people healing wrong we don't need to add to the mix nor add an excuse for it :P

Group wipes, asks healer what happens and gets a response like "oh it worked on the healing dummy the other day!11" no thanks. Use the dummies of the world.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
09/09/2012 02:15 PMPosted by Morenn
That's really what I think a healing dummy would be for, more than "Am I casting my healing spells in the correct order?"


Yes, that's what it would NEED to be to be of use. Which brings us back full circle to "Should dev time/money be put into making dummies that act like people when the same thing can be accomplished just using actual people in a dungeon/raid?"

edit: My opinion is that devs should work on things we *can't* do ourselves.


Lolz - I guess you didn't work on Heroic Spine from March and finally down him in August like I did. I mean, yeah, I had world of logs to review and see how I performed, but the only way I could test to see what I could do better was wait one week and wish I could push out more healing again.

So yeah, I'm of the opinion that something I could have worked on would have made the different in 5 months of in game experimentation. So if there was something really simple that could be programmed, then yeah, why not? Now some people are asking for something as complex as a raid environment, and I wouldn't advocate for that.

But having a dummy with 1/999999 HP that resets every second wouldn't be too difficult to program right? Just stick it next to a non-friendly dummy then I can test my atonement in a more controlled environment than the 150th wipe after four months when my emotions are running high.

----

09/09/2012 04:27 PMPosted by Fleurs
I'm opposed to healing dummies because unless it is an actual simulation of a raid environment (which is redundant and a waste of space since you can just do 5mans/lfr), 9x out of 10 it's going to teach the healer the WRONG things to do.


09/09/2012 06:17 PMPosted by Veroicone
Group wipes, asks healer what happens and gets a response like "oh it worked on the healing dummy the other day!11" no thanks. Use the dummies of the world.


It's exactly this that I'm trying to clarify. If the test dummy had to be programmed to mimic a raid environment, then it's 100% worthless. Just do the raid. But if there was some easy thing to program that wouldn't elicit this response, then that is a much better and more productive discussion.

I think where it gets hung up is that "I want to put myself in an environment outside of a raid where I have to make split decisions to learn a healing rotation" - that is silly and shouldn't be considered. I agree with everyone there.

But I like to tinker with my stats, my gems, my spells, my talents, and right now I only have the disappointed looks of 9 other people when my healing is too low and I tell them, "Well, I think I'm reforged wrong." I mean, how many people get benched or kicked out of raid groups because they're not "properly gemmed or enchanted" according to the "correct way" or the "elitist jerks" way when we know, for healers, the simcraft doesn't always equal the raid environment. You end up in a Catch-22 situation where it's "Use the real dummies except you don't get invited to a raid because you're not raid worthy in your current set up." Geez, our other raid won't allow raiders to have gathering professions. That's enough to get you benched.

I believe having a way to test your heals and talents can only help you better understand your capabilities. But I also believe that it shouldn't be too complex. A monumental effort in a healing dummy would just be annoying to develop, program, and implement. So I'd rather take the time to think of a dummy that wouldn't try to mimic a situation where real situations or self-casting heals could easily do the same job. And well, I've tried to give examples to show legitimate gaps where a dummy would be useful.

It's just my two cents. A simple dummy I don't think would be hard to program (side by side social dummies one friendly at 1/999999 HP and one enemy at 1/999999 HP) to test some DPS based skills / healing for testing.

I'm not saying we need a rotation (because there isn't one), and HPS requirement for raiding (because we know HPS is a false judge of ability), nor is it supposed to "teach you how to heal." What it would do is get you used to your abilities, get some experience without the emotional backlash of wipes, and provide a way to test out some of the talents that a lot of people wouldn't normally take. I mean, we're already getting into some Cookie Cutter specs for healing which wasn't the intent of the new talent system.

And well, it would give me a chance to play around with it. I like playing around with my stuff.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
oh, and when we had the chakra: Serenity bug, healing Dummies would have really been invaluable there. The only way to get Recount to track your healing is if you were actively in a combat where something was actually damaging you. It doesn't count self-heals or non-combat heals.

I had spent 2 hours fighting a boar outside orgrimmar gathering a sample size when some "helpful" person came and whacked it. I was furious because I had to start all over again.

Thank goodness for people like Kaels and others who spent the time to test out the bug and gather enough data to figure out that yes, Holy Word: Serenity was not giving the Crit bonus and it was a legitimate bug.

A healing dummy could have really helped us there.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I'm 99% sure you can set Skada to record healing done out of combat. If Skada does it, then it's unlikely Recount does not.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
Well if Recount does it - someone needs to tell me how :) I was 3800 casts into my recount when that guy killed my pig. I was going for 10000 casts for a large sample size in one recount setting and just lost the momentum to start over. I was so pissed.
Edited by Feythylan on 9/11/2012 9:52 AM PDT
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100 Dwarf Shaman
19525
Ugh not this thread again. This gets brought up at least once a month. They aren't necessary. End of thread.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
09/10/2012 09:37 AMPosted by Blob
Ugh not this thread again. This gets brought up at least once a month. They aren't necessary. End of thread.


lol - you didn't even read the thread, did you. I thought I brought up some legitimate points... but if you don't even want to bother then thank you for your dismissal. :P
Edited by Feythylan on 9/11/2012 9:52 AM PDT
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But having a dummy with 1/999999 HP that resets every second wouldn't be too difficult to program right? Just stick it next to a non-friendly dummy then I can test my atonement in a more controlled environment than the 150th wipe after four months when my emotions are running high.


How would that be any different than Smiting a dummy and then healing yourself? For that matter, you'd have to be in a party with the dummy to have Skada or Recount record the healing done on it.

I mean, I kind of agree with you, that would be pretty simple and there's no reason NOT to have it in game. But it also seems like it's not adding any new functionality.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
How would that be any different than Smiting a dummy and then healing yourself? For that matter, you'd have to be in a party with the dummy to have Skada or Recount record the healing done on it.


"After damaging or healing a target below 20%, you deal 15% increased damage or healing for 10 seconds."

The Dummies have 1/1 HP or 750M/750M. I cannot get a dummy in a state to test the effects. I'd have to manually multiply every cast by 0.15 in order to calculate what the input is by going through my combat log for a 10 second period and isolate the numbers I think.

Good point about the party issue for Recount. See, I find that an infinitely useful point because I'd love to have an idea that could be easily implemented.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
09/10/2012 01:20 AMPosted by Feythylan
I mean, how many people get benched or kicked out of raid groups because they're not "properly gemmed or enchanted" according to the "correct way" or the "elitist jerks" way when we know, for healers, the simcraft doesn't always equal the raid environment.

But it's pretty straight forward how healing works in terms of stats... IE: Rdruids go for certain hastebreak point(s), reach around a certain amount of spirit, then go for mastery.
Same for shamans.
It's... really not hard to figure out what stats you should be aiming for as a healer... This shouldn't be as much of an issue as you're making it out to be. You don't need a healing dummy in order to "mess around" like you want to.
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90 Tauren Priest
12030
Dis thread...just pull the plug.

It's beyond hope.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
09/11/2012 11:45 PMPosted by Fleurs
It's... really not hard to figure out what stats you should be aiming for as a healer... This shouldn't be as much of an issue as you're making it out to be. You don't need a healing dummy in order to "mess around" like you want to.


I'm not really sure about that... I'm especially concerned because it's likely that I'll need different gear for Disc Versus Holy - and I usually try to find a way to make the same gear work for both specs.

Twist of Faith increasing my Healing and Damaging - how does it worth through Atonement? Is it double dipping? If I can get a hit on a mutated corruption, elementum bolt, Giant tentacle, regenerative bloods, blisters... during each deathwing platform each time it's under 20% will that give me enough up time versus power infusion every 20 minutes? Without having a controlled environment, I have to make sure I heal effectively and if I missed an opportunity I won't get accurate results from a World of Logs report.

It would be nice if I could test this in a controlled environment, via something like Dummies. This way, I can know for Burst healing fights Power Infusion is better while add fights Twist of Faith can really pack a larger punch. But it just seems that you should "take Power Infusion" because the mindset is that is just what you should do.

Disc Priests have always had to choose between more Crit (DA Procs), more Mastery (better shields, which now that we're not casting as many, is mastery a lesser stat?), and more Haste (faster DA stacking through Prayer of Healing) and more Casts.

So yeah, I've always played around with my stats. Sure, you might think it's extraneous and a waste of time, but some people just like to do stuff like that.

Here's proof that I do stuff like that:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2913173102

So.... yeah. I wanna experiment, play, and not get benched because I'm using a progression raid group for my machinations. A dummy would serve me well.
Edited by Feythylan on 9/12/2012 3:26 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
10305
I agree with you Feythylan but I have learned better than to argue this in the healing forum. Should probably be sneaky and post it in a forum that is geared toward the game developers... :P

PS

09/10/2012 01:20 AMPosted by Feythylan
I like playing around with my stuff.

Niiiiice
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
Twist of Faith increasing my Healing and Damaging - how does it worth through Atonement? Is it double dipping?

Can figure this out without needing healing dummies.

09/12/2012 03:25 PMPosted by Feythylan
If I can get a hit on a mutated corruption, elementum bolt, Giant tentacle, regenerative bloods, blisters... during each deathwing platform each time it's under 20% will that give me enough up time versus power infusion every 20 minutes?

Lots of what-ifs here that still can be theorycrafted.

09/12/2012 03:25 PMPosted by Feythylan
Without having a controlled environment, I have to make sure I heal effectively and if I missed an opportunity I won't get accurate results from a World of Logs report.

Don't need WoL. It's helpful, but you can use other things, as well.

This way, I can know for Burst healing fights Power Infusion is better while add fights Twist of Faith can really pack a larger punch. But it just seems that you should "take Power Infusion" because the mindset is that is just what you should do.

Don't need healing dummies to figure it out.

So yeah, I've always played around with my stats. Sure, you might think it's extraneous and a waste of time, but some people just like to do stuff like that.

It is most definitely not a waste of time. Healing dummies are. You don't need this shiny object to give you magical knowledge that you can already figure out by different means.

Everyone so far in this thread, and the others like it, are bringing up points that all can be done as is. Healers, from the start of time on this game, have had to make do with what we have. We've been able to survive without having healing dummies and we still can. Though, it's not even detrimental to HAVE these dummies, because it is flatout EASY as PIE to figure out how to handle situations/figure out what gem/reforge/etc is better by either experiencing it firsthand or theorycrafting.
Edited by Fleurs on 9/12/2012 4:46 PM PDT
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