Low Level Dungeons

I don't frequent these forums much, but I decided to pop in and talk about something I've become more and more agitated with, so I apologize if this has been talked about already.

Like many players, one of my favorite things to do in WoW is level alts. And one of my favorite things to do on said alts is run low level dungeons. However, over the years, it has become insanely easy to blow through these dungeons without even having to put any real effort forth, especially in Cata. Veteran players are usually decked out in heirlooms and even newbies usually have better than average gear via the Satchel of Helpful Goods.

I was just running TBC dungeons on my DK alt and I don't even have time to set up my rotation before mobs and even bosses die. And healing is a snooze-fest on my other alt.

Now, I know players are constantly bickering about end-game dungeons/heroics being too hard/not hard enough and I don't want to add low level dungeons to that debate. I'm just ultimately wondering if anyone knows if, or thinks that, Blizzard should beef up these dungeons somewhat.

Thanks for reading :)
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85 Human Paladin
11570
tbc dungeons werent upated when vanilla ones were. they fell behind so much it's sad.

yes, they should be appropriatelly calibrated but...they won't be.
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tbc dungeons werent upated when vanilla ones were. they fell behind so much it's sad.

yes, they should be appropriatelly calibrated but...they won't be.


Yes, the difference between vanilla dungeons and TBC is unmistakable. I guess I'm mostly referring to those.
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90 Tauren Priest
12635
I think it's possible that pre-current dungeons might be a too easy right now, but if Blizzard's got enough resources to either a) develop new content or b) re-tune old content, I think it's better overall if they pick a).

If players want to organize instance groups that don't use heirlooms, or restrict their own iLvls through gear selection, or even under-man the dungeon by taking four people instead of five, then you can still make those places challenging to do at the proper level, and it's pretty fun to do so. (There was that Ironman Challenge that got a lot of press awhile back, and I'm sure the difficulty was fine in that case.) But on the whole, if Blizzard sees that the playerbase wants to get to the endgame as quickly as possible, it's going to facilitate doing that, and tuning pre-current dungeons to be more challenging is just going to frustrate more players than it pleases.
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There's a difference between easy and painless and a complete joke. I'm being serious when I say TBC bosses die in less than 5 seconds.

Players never have to learn how to play properly leveling up. They faceroll their way to max level then wonder why everything is so much harder now. There's no learning curve whatsoever anymore. It's a cliff.

Besides, leveling multiple characters is already relatively painless once you get heirlooms.


I couldn't agree more.

08/08/2012 10:54 PMPosted by Crowlight
I think it's possible that pre-current dungeons might be a too easy right now, but if Blizzard's got enough resources to either a) develop new content or b) re-tune old content, I think it's better overall if they pick a).


I'm not saying I think Blizzard should make new boss encounters for old dungeons, I just think they should beef up the hit points and damage output of the mobs and bosses. Maybe if the dungeons actually required you to be awake and not alt-tabbed half the time, end-game wouldn't be so painful to new players and we might hear a little less complaining about difficulty.
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90 Tauren Priest
12635
08/09/2012 12:12 AMPosted by Fùry
I'm not saying I think Blizzard should make new boss encounters for old dungeons, I just think they should beef up the hit points and damage output of the mobs and bosses. Maybe if the dungeons actually required you to be awake and not alt-tabbed half the time, end-game wouldn't be so painful to new players and we might hear a little less complaining about difficulty.


I don't think making the bosses last longer and hit harder necessarily increases the difficulty of the boss fight, though. The healer just throws more heals, the DPS and tank just keep stabbing away, and it takes more time, not more thinking. To make those fights more interesting and require the brain-power you're thinking of, you need to introduce mechanics, and you need to tune those mechanics to the expected output of a party in that dungeon.

The problem with doing that in pre-BC/BC content is that all of those dungeons have such a huge level-range of players who can get in there that the expected output is wildly variant. There's no way to tune the mechanics when the tank is 5 levels ahead of the DPS but two levels behind the healer. But you can't constrain the level range because that lengthens the time people are sitting in a queue to get into the dungeon. And doing that just stretches out the time between starting a fresh character and getting to the endgame.

Look at the difference in complexity between pre-Cata Deadmines and the Deadmines Remix. THAT is what you'd need to do to all of the pre-BC/BC dungeons in order to force players to get a challenge out of them. And that's a LOT of work.
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I see what you're saying. Maybe Outland can get some love in a patch or expansion later down the road.
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85 Draenei Hunter
11685
08/09/2012 06:11 AMPosted by Crowlight
I'm not saying I think Blizzard should make new boss encounters for old dungeons, I just think they should beef up the hit points and damage output of the mobs and bosses. Maybe if the dungeons actually required you to be awake and not alt-tabbed half the time, end-game wouldn't be so painful to new players and we might hear a little less complaining about difficulty.


I don't think making the bosses last longer and hit harder necessarily increases the difficulty of the boss fight, though. The healer just throws more heals, the DPS and tank just keep stabbing away, and it takes more time, not more thinking. To make those fights more interesting and require the brain-power you're thinking of, you need to introduce mechanics, and you need to tune those mechanics to the expected output of a party in that dungeon.

The problem with doing that in pre-BC/BC content is that all of those dungeons have such a huge level-range of players who can get in there that the expected output is wildly variant. There's no way to tune the mechanics when the tank is 5 levels ahead of the DPS but two levels behind the healer. But you can't constrain the level range because that lengthens the time people are sitting in a queue to get into the dungeon. And doing that just stretches out the time between starting a fresh character and getting to the endgame.

Look at the difference in complexity between pre-Cata Deadmines and the Deadmines Remix. THAT is what you'd need to do to all of the pre-BC/BC dungeons in order to force players to get a challenge out of them. And that's a LOT of work.


When a player doesn't even have time to use 5 global cooldowns they learn nothing about the game. Rogues can't even get enough combo points to use their ramp up abilities, let alone finishers. Bosses don't have time to use abilities that require tank or healer cds. Sometimes entire fight elements are eliminated because the boss dies so quickly. Where their was a chance to teach the value of interrupts, or dispels, or positioning, there's nothing.

They would likely learn as much about the game by fishing for coins in Dalaran. And then they get to heroic Lost City of Tol'vir and wonder what happened.

I'm sure Blizz has to contend with the potential of players quitting if the content is too hard too early, but I think their biggest mistake here was removing the entire learning curve. As mentioned a lot of players go from facerolling Gun'drak to getting crushed in (easy) cata heroics.

How about giving heirlooms +10% gain for every alt past level 80 on your account? After 5 alts you'd be earning inordinate amounts of XP and leveling wouldn't be a chore for players who have paid their dues, but also you wouldn't have to nerf the entire leveling process for the sake of a few players.

Players
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On top of everything mentioned above me, maybe the Luck of the Draw (I think that's what it's called) buff should be removed for players under level 80.

Or perhaps add a stacking buff after so many wipes? If a dungeon is too hard for a particular group and they keep dying then maybe after X amount of deaths a 10% buff to healing/damage/health is applied. Then a 20%. And so on.
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90 Tauren Priest
12635
08/09/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Fùry
On top of everything mentioned above me, maybe the Luck of the Draw (I think that's what it's called) buff should be removed for players under level 80.


I think it's a valid point that between heirloom gear, satchel items, and the overall power creep of the classes at lower levels, maybe Luck of the Draw tips the scales too far.
Edited by Crowlight on 8/9/2012 8:28 PM PDT
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44 Troll Druid
1785
Lower level dungeons...hmmm. Here's my two cents.

My issue with low level dungeons is that they are not low level to me, they are new and level appropriate.

I have no level 85, and I got my two heirlooms from a rogue that I played in battlegrounds till my eyes bled. I'm using this character to learn tanking and hope to be good at it when I reach 85. I'm also lucky enough to have a co-worker que with me as a healer. We talk on Vent since he knows most of the instances, and he is helping me learn through some on-the-job training.

I am amazed at how much I get dumped on by players who are fully outfitted in heirlooms, want to go 100 mph, and get mad cause I can't keep aggro when they are pulling mobs left and right.

I do read up on the instances we are going to run and try to follow the strategies, but that doesn't work when I don't have a chance to focus a mob before a fully heirloomed dps pulls it or takes threat away.

There are plenty of ways to track threat in an instance. If I (as a newer player) know this, then the "veterans" should as well. I'm also aware that most dps have some sort of way to dump threat...even if it's just stopping their attack for a moment.

The other night in the Armory, a hunter and mage kept pulling every mob in room then yelling at me for not taunting mobs off them....wtf??

Yes, we can kick an offender, drop group, or let the dps who takes threat from me die, but that doesn't address the real problem.

You guys can't have it both ways.....either let us learn our role at lower levels or deal with crappy tanks at the higher ones.

Edit: Typos and sentence structure
Edited by Bindiloo on 8/10/2012 12:10 PM PDT
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50 Worgen Rogue
250
08/09/2012 09:50 AMPosted by Fùry
I see what you're saying. Maybe Outland can get some love in a patch or expansion later down the road.


Speculation is that Sargeras will be the final raid boss in WoW. The burning legion was based from Outland. I personally loved Outland. I hope Outland gets the "Cata" treatment in another expansion.
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100 Human Paladin
17050
Yep, the current state of low level dungeons sucks. Would be nice if they were at minimum tuned so that bosses don't die in seconds without any mechanics mattering. Players would be a lot better prepared at level cap if the dungeons they did while leveling actually forced them to learn to play.

Unfortunately blizzard has stated several times that they feel if they upped the difficulty then players just wouldn't do them.
Edited by Brudarek on 8/12/2012 11:09 PM PDT
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85 Dwarf Warrior
13030
well, low level dungeoneering is pretty heavily pugged, mechanics and pugs don't mix.

Rather than making leveling content fun and interesting, heroics are going to be "HoT level" or made easier than leveling dungeons in most cases.
Edited by Asane on 8/12/2012 11:20 PM PDT
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50 Worgen Rogue
250
well, low level dungeoneering is pretty heavily pugged, mechanics and pugs don't mix.

Rather than making leveling content fun and interesting, heroics are going to be "HoT level" or made easier than leveling dungeons in most cases.


Mechanics in PuGs work just fine as long as the mechanics are not too overly complex or mixed with things that are not so much hard but tedious. People want to have fun during dungeons. People don't want to feel like they're working, especially for a stepping stone. Making them too easy isn't fun. It's finding that middle ground.
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85 Human Paladin
3425
I recently did every dungeon up to 80 on this character and I have to agree that it was rather boring at times even as a player with no heirlooms. I queued Tank the entire way and there were multiple times where I was asked by the healers to pull entire rooms, leading me to believe that they were bored of course. I chain pull acceptably in dungeons and ball up decent sized groups, but being rather new to those low-mid level pug dungeons, I did not expect to be able to take entire rooms or sections of dungeons + the boss with basically outdated blue gear most of the time.

I would agree that it is "easy" - you don't even have to be pulling that much and it can still be accomplished without much trouble. I am not speaking for everyone or even myself here but it should be considered that perhaps a majority of players don't want a challenge, especially while leveling, and the system has been catered to them.
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