My hatred for guilds is unending

90 Human Warrior
16770
08/10/2012 06:23 PMPosted by Serelina
At what point are guilds going to stop trying to screw me over? no really?


"Guilds" suggests this or something similar has happened before. The opening to the post suggests this has happened before. So I'm going on the assumption you have app'd to guilds multiple times and multiple times been rejected.

Let me ask you a question: What is the only common theme between all these scenarios?

I'll give you some hints: Its not the guild because presumably each guild was different
Its not the raid team because presumably each raid team is different
Its not the raid leader because presumably each raid leader is different
It could be the raids because that's the same (unless of course this behavior goes back to firelands, then even the raids are different). But then again, the raids themselves aren't involved in the decision.

You blunt, so I'll be blunt - The problems you are facing are with you. One major problem people who go around touting how 'blunt' they are face is that they fail to realize you can be blunt but still hold your tongue. If you are going to say something, say it. Say it directly and say it bluntly. That's you and there's nothing wrong with that. But that does not mean what you want to say actually has to be said.

Next time you are in this situation keep in mind the old saying, "Silence is golden."
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6780
08/12/2012 09:22 AMPosted by Haxzors
You don't post on your main because you don't want drama, or because you want to act like an !@# and make up wild stories? When it comes right down to it not posting on a main means you can blow smoke and you are protected, where as posting on a main means that you usually watch your tone and for most people you actually try to be you know, civil.


We seldom get the full story or perspectives from people here, we get their own take on a situation, and often original posters speak out with a level of frustration. Clearly the OP is/was frustrated, and it should be no surprise that a frustrated person is often seeking a place to talk about their frustrations, not a place to smack them and send them away for being bad. If someone wants to respond to people that way, it is their choice to do so, even if in some cases they may be technically right. But often all that does is make the frustrated person more frustrated and hence does not help most people.
If people are looking for an "I win, I'm right, your wrong forum" well this as a leadership forum is probably not the best choice.

To the OP:
It sounds like one of the issues your having is finding a place with people who are going to be a better match for you skill and more importantly personality wise. I'd suggest that you ask guilds if you can listen in to their raid on vent or mumble (if that is they type of raid environment you looking for) before you join them to get a feel, and also speak up in a few situations.

Also, consider that you may be right about your advice, but perhaps trying to figure out a way to deliver that information in a way that would make it more welcomed. Are you open to that idea and change your delivery style a bit if it would help with your guild relationship?
If so, consider saying in raid: I have or know of a way that might work for this fight, are you interested in that idea?
That way the leaders of the raid are being asked and it is their choice to listen to it.
Also, if they don't want to do the fight that way, can you be okay with that? As in really fine and happy with that, not just give up and go along?
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90 Human Warrior
16770
08/11/2012 08:20 AMPosted by Elgunaz
I find it ironic that you are saying a certain tactic (which is widely used precisely because there's almost always a reason to post on an alt, and that reason is usually never good and quite often indicates your flaws and errors in the situation) is not welcome, while stating imaginary rules about how this forum is conducted in order to intimidate others. There is no 'we' here, YOU don't like people exposing mains, which is fine, but there is no way you can speak for the rest of the users on this forum or really anyone else.


Actually, the guild and raid leadership forums have a LONG standing tradition of not outing posters and using alts (going back to the forums on the old website). There are many, many reasons for this. But the biggest reason has nothing to do with the poster. It has to do with those the poster may be referring to.

Basically if somebody comes on an alt and posts for advice they are often trying to protect the identity of other people, not themselves. This is an advice/help forum. Not a general discussion forum. Not a recruitment forum. Not a strategy forum. Considering what this forum is supposed to be for, there is no need for 'mains'. There is no need to establish credibility. There is a need to protect other people who may not want their dirty laundry aired or to be associated with it.

This forum often gets questions about guild drama - how to handle it, what to do, who's right/wrong. But it brings one person and one side. Maybe the other people involved just want to be left alone. But by posting a 'main' and exposing the guild, that may not be possible. Now somebody who didn't bring anything here at all could be brought in or have their personal stuff aired out.

Nobody here is asking you don't use the addon (at least they shouldn't be). But maybe keep your findings from the addon private. If people want to stay private and know they have a good chance at being outed because regulars reveal this info they are less likely to come and post for help.

If you hit a situation where somebody is posting under mutliple toons in the same thread to troll or make it look like multiple people support their position, thats entirely different and probably should be exposed. But people wanting privacy...let them have it. Even if you don't think it matters. Its their decision.

Basically, there is a reason why newspapers post the authors name on op-ed pieces, but Dear Abby uses handles like "Lost and confused in Dallas"
Edited by Khahan on 8/13/2012 9:40 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9940
I would honestly try to talk to the RL very humbly and ask why they didn't take you. I would state that you thought you contributed well and want to make sure you didn't unintentionally upset someone or otherwise do something to cause them to dismiss you from the team.

If they tell you why you can ask clarifying questions but don't get defensive and then thank him for the info and move on.
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90 Undead Mage
11290
[quote]
[quote]please tell me how i acted above everyone else, When i didn't say anything to anyone? I logged in, I raided, I logged out and played on guildless alts.


This might have had a huge impact on your final removal from the guild and the comment about "a doormat." Did you spend anytime over that week logged into your guilded toon to chit chat, run dungeons, pvp or any type of interaction with the guild? It doesn't seem that you did reading your posts. You even mentioned you hardly said any words in G chat... so let me ask you this.

Why would a guild want to keep you if the only thing you do for it is log in for a raid and not contribute anything else to the guild whatsoever? Unless this guild was top tier US 100 or better they usually want someone more invested in the guild than grabbing a raid spot.

My impression from your posting. You have a reputation on your server, maybe not a great one even though you play your toon well. The guild didn;' want to bring you in due to that reputation but did because you are friends with X player in guild. You came in for that one week and may have come accross strongly in your suggestion ( remember that types words sometimes can seem to mean different intensions ). You didn't bring anything they felt was worth keeping you in guild despite your friendship with a guild member. You hadn't logged in all week but BAM you log in and want a raid spot 5 minutes before raid so they removed you at the first opportunity.

Just wipe your hands of it ... look at your self in introspect and identify the type of guild you feel you would mess well with. Apply to that guild.

Good luck in the future.

Sym
Edited by Symantics on 8/13/2012 10:48 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
10550
FIVE MINUTES BEFORE THE RAID There, Unfortunately Being blunt is often required to get the point across.


You didn't mention if the guild was actively recruiting or not... just that you applied. Also, my understanding from your OP was that the raid you were invited on was a trial run. You mention the next week they brought a new person along. It could stand to reason that they were trialing as well? Trial run invites don't always equate to getting a permanent spot. At least not in my guild.

08/10/2012 06:23 PMPosted by Serelina
because i'm not a doormat


You repeatedly state this, but I'm not even sure what you mean. If you barely said anything in chat, like you stated, this makes zero sense. I can only guess that there was a personality conflict.
Edited by Sherbear on 8/13/2012 2:50 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16660
At OP, I've gkicked people for less. As a general rule I ask people if they are capable of following orders. If they reply yes, then they are to come to raid and follow instructions.

You sound like someone who hasn't matured yet, so take that as you will. Just because you are stepping backwards a few steps to raid with friends doesn't give you any rights to assault your leaders.

If they come into raid and proceed to tell everyone what to do and how to play, or they pester me with tells, I will generally keep recruiting for the slot. Whether the recruit gets upset about it is not my concern, they have to learn not to speak unless spoken to in a cooperative environment. You have leadership, then everyone else. If you want to move into leadership, then do so by talking outside of the raid and not IN the raid.

Additionally, if I get poorly typed tells and constant spelling errors, I realize the person is probably not detail oriented or believes everyone else needs to conform to their way of doing things because of their own self important. Presentation is 90% of the opinion people will develop about you and it's a good lesson to learn early while you are still a teenager.

TL;DR: Too many cooks spoil the broth.
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85 Tauren Druid
8960
08/10/2012 08:41 PMPosted by Serelina
But hey it's the wow forums if you aren't in a clique and you come here as a loner, Specialy with guild issues of all things, you will be shunned, this was a mistake, I give up.

It's more about your attitude than anything. I can generally make it through walls of text if the content is worth reading. As far as I can tell, you just came here to rant and look for people that agree with you.

Bluntness is not a crime. I tend to respect people that tell me when I'm wrong if I actually am (...although they may never hear a word of it. Most often, hindsight is what lets people know they were wrong.). Not everyone does though, and a little tact goes a long way.

You say you had to be blunt to get your point across, and I'm sure that's how you see it. From past experience, I can say that not responding to every piece of advice is not the same as never having heard it in the first place. They may have simply disagreed with it or decided to try it after their current set of ideas failed. Even good advice is usually ignored if not offered up correctly or from a trusted advisor. Trying to force them to do it your way will only piss them off.
Edited by Bovie on 8/14/2012 9:47 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
14995
In my experience, and especially on the internet where anonymity protects them, people who pride themselves too much on being "blunt" are using it as an excuse to be an inconsiderate, tactless jerk to others, and expecting to get away with it.

Bluntly: No.

I swear, it is possible to be honest and assertive without being rude, tactless, annoying, a jerk, or coming off like you have major attitude issues.

Stop priding yourself on bluntness, especially over a primarily text-based medium. It's going to backfire on you, and already has--multiple times. Many of the responses here comment on the apparent bad attitude of the OP--because that's all we see.

Just because someone doesn't always speak up, that doesn't make them a doormat. Just because someone doesn't speak up publicly, that doesn't make them a doormat. Just because people agree with a person and/or method that you don't, that doesn't make them a doormat. Just because someone removes themselves from a situation without explanation or drama, that doesn't make them a doormat. Just because someone is willing to use "please," "thank you," and other polite phrases, questions, and even cutesy emotes, that doesn't make them a doormat.

"Being blunt" as described and shown in this thread by the OP comes off as arrogant, it comes off as rude, and it's going to continue to be an issue as they look for guilds and try to assert themself on a group and that group's existing system. As another poster said, hindsight is where we realize most of our own issues, and it's possible that the OP doesn't even realize what kind of impression they've been making, here and to potential guilds. They should try to swallow their pride and figure it out.

I also have the feeling OP simply came here to rant and gain sympathy, except this is a raid and guild leader forum, so talking about hating guilds (strong words) for rejecting someone with such an attitude isn't going to go over well, nor gain many sympathy g-invites.
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70 Draenei Paladin
13210
Alright, I'll give it a shot since the rest of you are screwing this one up royally and even derailing the thread. Good Lord.

So once again i get the guild roullette game, I had a friend in Y guild, I applied to Y guild now i am a very progressed raider and they had room for a raider of my role in team 2, So i applied showing off all my credientials and what not, Now typicly im a very blunt person i'm not going to deny it i wont sugar coat something if there's a problem, especialy a drama related problem i'm not going to play the subtle backstab shadow games, I'm going to surface the problem and then remove it. The same tactic is typicly applied to raiding, Though it's generaly with a bit more subtly, so anyway i applied to Y guild, It took them TEN WHOLE DAYS to reply to my application and that was only after i pestered my friend to pester them, They decided to trial me on team B, Right that worked so well i noticed we couldn't get a specific fight down, And i was ahead of the others in my role, (I'm being as vague as possible so names aren't referred, The last thing i want is more drama) so i kindly suggested a new strat in whisper to the leader And it almost worked we almost downed it then and there, It got so incredibly close but it was end of raid, Next week comes along i'm told i can't raid anymore because i'm not a doormat, RL takes my strat, brings in a new (lesser person imo) downs the boss, i get used, What pisses me off is i had to wait 10 bloody days to get in, And then didn't get told i was out till five minutes before the raid, with a BS excuse when i barely said five things in G chat, let alone anything to raiders.

At what point are guilds going to stop trying to screw me over? no really?


Serelina, you came to the forums upset. As such what you gave this forum was an emotional rant instead of a rational account. Unfortunately you expressed a number of opinions in a manner that posters didn't agree with and they are prematurely judging you based on this behavior.

You didn't like it, as I don't think anyone would, and became defensive about it and dismissive of the posts responding to you. Who wouldn't? It's frustrating and irritating, especially with so many forums plagued with trolls. But the problem is this just sets them off and others off more and on this negative circle of posting behavior goes until it's all but derailed or a series of defensive rants.

Hi, that's where we are now.

So I'm going to take this back to the beginning and give you a real response that hasn't been done yet. One that will get you hopefully thinking and evaluating. Maybe even calm you down some as well.

You asked..

08/10/2012 06:23 PMPosted by Serelina
At what point are guilds going to stop trying to screw me over? no really?


Well... when do YOU think it will end? That's who should really be answering the question here. Because this is about YOU, not us. We're not you, we weren't there, we don't live your life or with you on a daily basis to know clearly. Only you do, only YOU with a clear reflective mind.

So step back, stop participating in the negative cyclic behavior of these conversations here, and go for a walk or something. While you do so, give it some real thought. I suggest some place nice and peaceful that will put your mind in a more reflective state.

Good luck!
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43 Blood Elf Paladin
0
08/14/2012 09:14 PMPosted by Deathpony
Alright, I'll give it a shot since the rest of you are screwing this one up royally and even derailing the thread. Good Lord.


08/14/2012 09:14 PMPosted by Deathpony
Well... when do YOU think it will end? That's who should really be answering the question here. Because this is about YOU, not us. We're not you, we weren't there, we don't live your life or with you on a daily basis to know clearly. Only you do, only YOU with a clear reflective mind.


So you just said what the previous 4 pages said. It is about the OP ;) It may not be worded the same way you said it and they may be more blunt than your response, however, it is the same thing.
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70 Draenei Paladin
13210
08/14/2012 09:33 PMPosted by Knyghtmare
So you just said what the previous 4 pages said. It is about the OP ;) It may not be worded the same way you said it and they may be more blunt than your response, however, it is the same thing.


Well what I'm saying isn't the same thing actually. I think you're missing it. I didn't say it was the OP. I said only the OP knows the answer to their question. One is a finger pointing of blame, the other is opening a door to revelation. That's a substantial difference.

Also, I didn't insult the OP or pre-judge them based on an obviously heightened emotional state of mind, and then continued to pass ongoing judgement as they became rattled, nor build my opinion of them based on a mounting momentum of negative input by other posters. Most of the posters here did that, because well, people love to lay in to people when they get the chance on the internet and jump in line to whack someone of the head. It's the nature of anonymous internet forums.

And lastly, "That word you keep using. I dunna think that word means what you think it means." (Princess Bride throw) My response was blunt. I just wan't rude about it to provoke a defensive reaction that doesn't actually help the person at all, but instead confound them with a new problem, or battle, as it were.

I mean seriously. Are we here to help people or take crap out on them to make ourselves feel better, aka help ourselves? If someone comes up to you for help after just having a negative experience and now they are rather emotional blast it out. Do you throw cold water in their face, slap them, and say "That's cuz you're an a-hole!"

Or do you think to yourself inside your head and go "Wow this person is upset, maybe punching them and insulting them wouldn't be the best response to go with?"

I mean come on. What the crap? Who does that?
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90 Human Paladin
9095
08/14/2012 11:11 PMPosted by Deathpony
I mean come on. What the crap? Who does that?


I agree with you 100%, however, you're just derailing the thread in a different direction with responses such as:

08/14/2012 09:14 PMPosted by Deathpony
Alright, I'll give it a shot since the rest of you are screwing this one up royally and even derailing the thread. Good Lord.
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90 Human Paladin
14995
The "we totally don't look up mains/alts!" convo was annoyingly disruptive, and honestly could probably be deleted as it adds nothing and was mostly handled poorly.

I looked for a couple other posts by the OP (including the main's recruitment post once it was pointed out) and saw someone who is posting haughtily at other times, not just this once in the heat of the moment. There's an immediate assumption in a few other posts (some here on this forum) that a raid/guild leader is going to screw OP over so they have to go, or say/do something first.

Some of their replies in this thread came much later as well, and while yeah, the punching bag responses weren't too helpful, there was no real change in the OP's demeanor at all. They are more concerned with "not being a doormat" and "being blunt" than with considering their own interactions with people in an online medium.

I still think it was mostly at venting for sympathy rather than a real search for advice (so the real advice replies are likely going to get ignored anyway with a "don't know how it really is"), and it hasn't gone over well due to the only face that has been presented to the forum. Presentation is pretty important, and if they just wanted to rant, they could have said so.
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85 Tauren Druid
8960
08/14/2012 11:11 PMPosted by Deathpony
Also, I didn't insult the OP or pre-judge them based on an obviously heightened emotional state of mind, and then continued to pass ongoing judgement as they became rattled, nor build my opinion of them based on a mounting momentum of negative input by other posters.

You can call it what you want, but the fact of the matter is that groups of people tend to respond in similar ways. Guilds are going to react in similar ways to people in this forum when presented with the same thing. What I'm trying to say is that people in this generally helpful group are almost certainly reacting to the exact same thing as guilds are, and reacting in a similar manner. This is just another symptom of the same problem.

With that in mind, how is pointing out the problem here derailing the thread? It's the same reason guilds are kicking.
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70 Draenei Paladin
13210
You can call it what you want, but the fact of the matter is that groups of people tend to respond in similar ways. Guilds are going to react in similar ways to people in this forum when presented with the same thing. What I'm trying to say is that people in this generally helpful group are almost certainly reacting to the exact same thing as guilds are, and reacting in a similar manner. This is just another symptom of the same problem.


I'm not calling it what I want, I'm calling it for what it is. Sure people can respond in similar ways, and they can do this with the correct facts and understanding as they can with without. The fact of the matter is the responses being given and in the manner they were given, talking about the finger pointing and comments setting the OP off, were not helping the individual who came here for help.

People can do this and people can do that and people can feel this and people can feel that, but that's all irrelevant if your (generic you) goal is to help someone and you (generic you) obviously can't observe when a person is in a frame of mind to argue as opposed to listen.

We've had people many times come on these forums and give tirades or rants, and anyone who posts on an internet forum for more than a month can recognize them easily. They are one paragraph run-on sentences saturated with opinionated emotion. It's a person venting. You know this, Bovie, just as anyone here does but in some cases forgot. I remember vividly in one case one comment sent off a domino effect that developed into a Mob mentality that wanted the blood of the individual, and I remember posting in that thread calling that out for what it was then too... and when people read what I said, even though I was bonking them over the head, they did reflect upon themselves that they did in fact handle themselves poorly.

By the same token we've had people come here very upset. Regulars suggested a cool down. The person did so, came back, re-did their original post and edited their defensive posts with a clearer state of mind. Which didn't happen in the midst of a torch and pitchfork persecution. It happened after people realized how bad they were being in their responses, and what they were instead created within the thread.

With that in mind, how is pointing out the problem here derailing the thread? It's the same reason guilds are kicking.


I'm not sure if I'm understanding your comment here correctly, so correct me if I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding you are advocating the finger pointing at the OP which has served to only alienate them from this conversation and put them in defensive position? They problem is the OP right? And we should be OK with telling them that point blank? Is that correct?

If so and this is what you are advocating, answer me this then, is it working to help this person? Sincerely. Does it look like it's getting thru? What's the alternative at this point, elevation? Harsher statements and flaming til they 'get it through their thick skulls?

Is that what this is about? If they don't listen, yell louder?

Why aren't we (collective we the regulars who come here to help people) aren't as passionate about getting better at helping the people who come here to help by learning from our own mistakes and successes? That's what I want to know.

Instead, when we see a person having a meltdown on these forums, why aren't we working together to suggest the person cool down first? And then when they have cooled down and are thinking more rationally come back to the forum and give us a insightful and reflective account of events to give us as much information as possible so we can help them as much as possible?

We've done it before. Why aren't we making it standard R&GL response methods in these cases. Why aren't we, if we really want to help, giving supportive responses like this?:

Hey Serelina, I can see that you're clearly upset about what's happened to you. The regulars of these forums are good people with good insight that genuinely like to help the people that come here for help. But for us to help you, we need you in a more rational frame of mind. We need all the facts, both good and bad, in order to help you as best we can. We'll be here when you're ready.


^ Absolutely this. I'd love to help you as well, but it's a clearly a little too raw right now. Come back to us when you've had some time to calm down. I'd be glad to help you as well.
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14 Human Mage
0
A little surprised by some of the responses here.

I would still be royally ticked off if I was the poster but I'd also be happy because at least only a week of my time would have been wasted rather than more. Silver linings.

But there is a learning opportunity for raid leaders and guild leaders with the red flags shown by the guild.

1) Taking too long to respond to someone when they apply to you.
Example: About a month ago, I had an inquiry about a spot on the team I lead. I apologized and said no that we were full but that there was another raid team in the guild with a spot open if they were interested. It's only common courtesy to promptly get back to someone. Even if you don't have a spot free at the moment, you never know when one day you will. (Besides it being just the nice thing to do).

2) Being resistant to new ideas. Even if new idea is from new person.
Example: Well a month has passed, and one of my healers didn't show up for raid. Who should I get a see on but that druid that had asked about a spot a month previously--I asked him if he was saved, and nope! He was free, and he came along. He had great advice for the tank and raid as a group which helped us get a new heroic boss down. The entire time he was apologetic for speaking up and was paranoid we'd hold it against him. I said, not to be silly. I wouldn't let someone straight up take over a raid, but if anyone has a good idea or tip, then a good raid leader or raider should be open to constructive criticism.

3) Poor communication about scheduling.
Example: I have a long standing rule that if you miss the first day, then unless whoever we pug in for subsequent raid days that week can't make it, you have to sit. It's only fair. Also, if I send someone an invite and ask if they can come to raid, then I keep my promise. I'd never sit someone five minutes for raid. I respect someone's time too much to do that to them and I'd be annoyed if someone ever did that to me. The following raid day my missing healer showed back up and said that he would be unable to raid again until early winter. Very sad to see him go but asked the druid that applied and came with us that week if he was still interested, and yes, he very much was! So win/win for all of us.
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70 Draenei Shaman
1195
The "we totally don't look up mains/alts!" convo was annoyingly disruptive, and honestly could probably be deleted as it adds nothing and was mostly handled poorly.

I looked for a couple other posts by the OP (including the main's recruitment post once it was pointed out) and saw someone who is posting haughtily at other times, not just this once in the heat of the moment. There's an immediate assumption in a few other posts (some here on this forum) that a raid/guild leader is going to screw OP over so they have to go, or say/do something first.

Some of their replies in this thread came much later as well, and while yeah, the punching bag responses weren't too helpful, there was no real change in the OP's demeanor at all. They are more concerned with "not being a doormat" and "being blunt" than with considering their own interactions with people in an online medium.

I still think it was mostly at venting for sympathy rather than a real search for advice (so the real advice replies are likely going to get ignored anyway with a "don't know how it really is"), and it hasn't gone over well due to the only face that has been presented to the forum. Presentation is pretty important, and if they just wanted to rant, they could have said so.


And what was your point in looking up the Ops other posts.. other than to further serve to disrupt this thread.... You say the disucssion of researching /outing of mains was not appropriate.. and yet your post is not much better..

Other than it is just another lets bash the Op some more post... I may not have liked how the Op came across,, but tthis thread is turning into nothing but a witch hunt.

maybe it is time to just let this thread die,, unless there can be something really constructive to bring into the topic.. right now I think enough have been said from all sides..

The Op was asking for advice Maybe a bit in the wrong way, but she was asking for some help, not a bash on the head about how horrible she is.. what is the saying if you can not say something nice it is better to say nothing at all...? Maybe everyone needs to consider that before posting anything additional.
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90 Draenei Priest
18155
08/15/2012 04:40 PMPosted by Fairbreeze
what is the saying if you can not say something nice it is better to say nothing at all...?


Ok, while I understand what you're trying to say here, that's not always realistic. Sometimes advice isn't nice. Sometimes advice on a situation coming from an outsider's perspective does, in fact, put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the person asking for advice. And phrasing that advice in a "nice" way doesn't change the advice being given.

If someone asks me for advice, I'm going to give it, whether it's something they want to hear or not. And I won't apologize for it. What am I supposed to say? "Gosh, I know what I'm about to say is going to offend you/hurt your feelings/put the blame on you, and since that's not nice, I'm going to avoid giving you said advice." Nope. Not every piece of advice is nice and happy and "oh honey I'm so sorry, cry on my shoulder."

Yes, I realize that's not what you were getting at, and maybe I rambled on too long. But advice is what it is. How the person reacts to it is on them. And chances are, if someone reacts negatively to advice, he/she already realizes the advice was correct; it just wasn't what they wanted to hear. And that is pretty much what happened in this thread.
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