A Clarification of TE's PvP Policy

Dear Ravenholdt Community,

It has recently come to the attention of the Twilight Empire Officers that there are some concerns and misunderstandings regarding our PvP policy and what is acceptable PvP for TE members to engage in. While I understand that I’ve tried to clarify TE’s stance on this matter in the past, it appears that it is time to reach out to the community and clarify a few more things.

First of all, for those who are interested, our PvP policy can be found here: http://www.twilightempire.org/pages/about/50605-about-twilight-empire-required

It should be noted that the PvP policy is rather broad and flexible. As the author of the policy, I assure you that this was intentional. I wanted to give our policy the ability fit different play-styles and the adaptability to suit the guild’s evolving RP storylines. While it is eminently suitable for these goals, it has also created some areas for confusion.

Here are some matters that we feel need to be clarified:

* TE members are allowed to PvP. It appears that some people are under the impression that TE does not PvP at all. This is absolutely and unequivocally false. TE can and will PvP. We merely place some restrictions on our PvP that not all guilds share. So long as these restrictions are met, our members are open to engaging in PvP. These restrictions are both IC and OOC.

* TE members are allowed to attack Horde first in certain instances. If a member of the Horde is notorious for attacking Alliance members and TE members, it is reasonable to believe that this Horde does not wish for peace ICly. Wanted posters might have gone up and this Horde may essentially be considered KOS. It is unrealistic for you to expect that you can camp TE members and then never be attacked by us simply if, in one instance, you do not attack first. If you are being attacked by TE members without provocation and you feel that this is in error, please contact the TE officers (detailed information below is provided on appropriate ways to do this).

* TE members can be a part of “zergs.” We have no rule saying that TE members cannot be a part of zergs when fighting Horde. In fact, many TE members are not PvPers but are willing to join in and help a guildie being camped. Thus, we zerg. Or we may join zergs. This is acceptable under our rules, unless previously defined rules of engagement have been agreed upon.

*TE members are not completely neutral. Twilight Empire is a part of the Alliance. While we seek peace between the factions, we are comprised of many characters with diverse backgrounds. Some are more committed to peace and will never attack Horde, even if the Horde are fighting Allies. Others will attack Horde with glee if they are attacking Allies. Please do not mistake our PvP policy for a statement of complete neutrality – Neither our RP nor game mechanics allow for this at the moment.

*TE members are friends with people in PvP guilds. As a community-oriented guild, TE strives to reach out to all members of the Ravenholdt community. This means that we have friends in numerous guilds. It’s perfectly appropriate for TE members to have friends in PvP guilds. It’s also appropriate for TE members to ask those friends for help if they are encountering issues with PvP. As many of you are well aware, TE is not comprised completely of elite PvPers. So if we are having issues, we will naturally reach out to others to help us out.

<c>
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Should you believe a TE member is breaking one of TE’s policies, please consider the following:

* The action could be a part of RP. There are times that a character in TE has developed some flaw that they are exploring. Their action of attacking Horde might be an IC manifestation of that flaw. Please be assured that the matter will be handled ICly. For example, some TE members have “gone off the deep end” and attacked Horde settlements. They were brought up on IC charges and the Empire held a trial. Depending on the evidence presented, these characters may have been exiled from the Empire. At other times, TE members were going undercover and would remove their tabards and wear helms when going to fight Horde for operations. We love RP and this is one way for us to foster it.

* The actions could be in response to Alliance cries for help. If Alliance and Horde are engaging in battle, a TE member is allowed to enter the fray. While we try to make sure the Horde started it, often these encounters are cases of “He did this, she did that,” and it’s difficult to discern who exactly started it. We are Alliance members. Twilight Empire is loyal to the Alliance. We are sworn to defend Alliance members and the Alliance cities. Thus, please do not go on a rampage when we help defend our Allies. It’s best to assume we were asked for help or responded to localdefense.

* The action could have been an accident. Depending on the circumstances, we have received reports on accidental PvP. This might happen when a higher level mis-clicks and one-shots a lowbie. After talking about it with the parties involved, it is clear that an accident occurred. So if I accidentally spam an icelance at you, keep that in mind. Of course, if I frost nova you first, then there might be a legitimate issue. =)

<c>
Edited by Aerana on 8/14/2012 8:44 PM PDT
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After considering the previous factors, if you still feel the action warrants a report, please contact the TE officers in the following manner:

* Have documentation ready. There are so many times where these PvP issues are matters of misunderstanding. However, without concrete evidence, the Officers of TE are left with little to investigate. These matters turn into “he said, she said” scenarios, with both sides offering numerous witnesses. Screenshots, chatlogs, and other such documentation help us to figure out what happened so that we can appropriately discipline our members. We understand that this is difficult to do in times of PvP, but it truly does help facilitate the process.

* PM an officer. We ask that you message us via the TE website (twilightempire.org). Our current officers are: Aerana, Reesee, Donnelly, Erber, Rednaxela, Pralea, Tinox, and Katelle. Any of these officers are more than equipped to handle your concern. Please provide specific information and documentation in your PM. A reasonable possible solution to your concern would also be appreciated. These PMs are often copied into the Officer Forums and discussions regarding the issue and possible resolution are held.

*Public ranting is not a direct line to our officers. It appears that there is a misunderstanding regarding what constitutes constructive notice to TE officers of an issue. Talking poorly about TE in a public channel, while unfortunate, does not provide officers with the context and evidence necessary to take action. RP reports regarding actions are also not appropriate if you’re seeking OOC consequences (or if your feelings are really hurt) since they will be dealt with IC. Messaging and harassing officers in-game is also not appropriate. Similarly, reporting or complaining to regular members is not always the best way to make sure the officers hear about it. While we would love it if they came to us all the time with all of this information, sometimes that simply doesn't happen.

* Be patient. Our officers have a lot going on, both in-game and in real life. While you would ideally receive a PM in response when we receive your concern, this might slip by the wayside. We ask that you please be patient in allowing us to investigate the matter. I promise you that we take these reports very seriously and give all of them due consideration.

*Do not expect a public declaration of disciplinary action. The Officers of TE do not publicly announce when a member has been disciplined. We also do not guild-kick on the first offense (unless it is an extreme offense). We have disciplinary procedures that we follow which generally consists of the following: A warning/reminder, demotion, and then booting. Depending on the action, we retain discretion on what measures are implemented.

With a guild as large as the Twilight Empire, it can sometimes be difficult to ensure that all members are following our policies at all times. Your help in this matter is appreciated, as is your understanding that humans make mistakes. Should you have any questions, comments, complaints, or concerns, please do not hesitate to politely contact the TE Officers.

Thank you again for your understanding in this matter and we look forward to many continued years as contributing members of this community.

Sincerely,
Aerana Dantay
Guild Master of Twilight Empire
Edited by Aerana on 8/14/2012 8:13 PM PDT
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I have been challenged to provide a TL; DR version. It is as follows:

The PvP Policy of TE can be confusion. For the record, TE can PvP, kill Horde first under certain circumstances, be a part of zergs, and have friends in PvP guilds.

Before reporting a TE member for violating TE rules, consider whether the action was part of RP, was in response to Alliance asking for help, or was an accident.

To report a TE member violating our rules, please document evidence, PM an officer, don't rant in public and expect it to get to an officer, be patient, and don't expect a public response.

TE is a big guild and we're working as hard as we can to ensure our members follow the rules. We appreciate your help and understanding.

Thank you.
Edited by Aerana on 8/14/2012 9:59 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
11010
Best Horde approach: Don't worry about trying to figure out TE's PvP rules or report them for anything. Just treat them as you would any other potentially dangerous guild, be it kill them on sight or leave.
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08/14/2012 10:07 PMPosted by Stormreavér
Best Horde approach: Don't worry about trying to figure out TE's PvP rules or report them for anything. Just treat them as you would any other potentially dangerous guild, be it kill them on sight or leave.


I apologize if my post(s) came across in a way that implied that Horde should not report TE members for violating our policy. That was absolutely not my intention. I also apologize for the ambiguity in our PvP rules. Again, this ambiguity and flexibility was intentional for RP purposes, but it does make things difficult sometimes.

My intention was to point out that TE can PvP in certain circumstances. All reports, no matter their source, will be taken seriously and given due consideration. Documentation helps us to make a decision and PM'ing an officer with all information is an appropriate way to bring it to our attention.

We value our reputation and we wish to do everything to ensure that TE remains true to its vision. We are happy that there are people out there who keep track of these things and bring them to our attention. This helps to make us a better guild =) But sometimes misconceptions can occur that cause people to believe that TE has suddenly turned into a guild of gankers because one of our members killed a Horde. That's simply not true.

So my post was to help clarify and provide a guide for reporting issues.
Edited by Aerana on 8/14/2012 10:22 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Warrior
1245
Best Horde approach: Don't worry about trying to figure out TE's PvP rules or report them for anything. Just treat them as you would any other potentially dangerous guild, be it kill them on sight or leave.


ravenholdt:
@#*erboozle farion jerold oolaki stormreavér verilore xelàs xelas xelus yulia

Stop trying to get people to attack your own guild.

It is not nice.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
11010
Lowered expectations = fewer complaints for everyone involved. Simplicity = less confusion.

The absolute, bottom line is that a Horde player may find himself or herself killed by TE members for no reason he or she can discern other than "it's a PvP server". Giving Horde a reason to think that they ought to expect different treatment than this is setting people up for frustration and drama. Inviting Horde to complain about PvP happening on a PvP server is just plain masochism.

My telling Horde to be 'business as usual' whether they're dealing with TE or not is a kindness to everyone involved IMO.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
11010
08/14/2012 10:32 PMPosted by Slaye
It is not nice.


You mean like Tarashan trying to kill his own guildmates?
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90 Human Rogue
11465
Thank you for taking the time to create this write-up, Aerana. As an officer, it helps to have something clear-cut that I can send curious individuals to or pull directly from myself - especially seeing as the Empire's PvP policy that you provided a link to strikes me as an overview more than anything, and leaves many specific questions unanswered.

While I am sure the TL;DR version is appreciated by those who want an at-a-glance answer, your original in-depth explanation will go a long way towards satisfying the curiosity and correction the misconceptions of many who take the time to read it.

Additionally: I second the statement that we are not at all attempting to discourage Horde individuals from reporting any questionable actions by our guild members to the officership. As has been stated: if we do not know an infraction is occurring, we can do nothing about it. :) The channels Aerana has listed for contacting an officer are provided so that people can get in touch with the officer base and assure that their concerns are heard, discussed, and resolved one way or another.
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90 Tauren Druid
4825
I will no longer stand idly by and /dance for your amusement. This time, the claws come off!

Oh wait, no they don't, I kinda need them.
Edited by Ituhata on 8/14/2012 11:02 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Mage
14080
08/14/2012 10:53 PMPosted by Stormreavér
It is not nice.


You mean like Tarashan trying to kill his own guildmates?


I fail to see how it concerns an out of guild character. What someone does on their Horde alt is their business.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
1245
Lowered expectations = fewer complaints for everyone involved. Simplicity = less confusion.

The absolute, bottom line is that a Horde player may find himself or herself killed by TE members for no reason he or she can discern other than "it's a PvP server". Giving Horde a reason to think that they ought to expect different treatment than this is setting people up for frustration and drama. Inviting Horde to complain about PvP happening on a PvP server is just plain masochism.

My telling Horde to be 'business as usual' whether they're dealing with TE or not is a kindness to everyone involved IMO.


TE has a PvP policy, which is clearly explained in the posts above. This outlines that Horde members(Unless they've proven to be gankers/campers/otherwise hostile in the past) have nothing to fear from some random TE member they see running around.

If TE members are running around attacking everyone and everything in sight, then it should be reported, because they are obviously going against TE's PvP policy, which you can read in the above posts.

There is no 'lowered expectations'. If someone is breaking the rules, then they should bring it to the attention of TE's officers and leaders, so that it can be looked at and dealt with.

The absolute, bottom line is that a Horde player may find himself or herself killed by TE members for no reason he or she can discern other than "it's a PvP server".


If this is happening, then whoever is doing the killing is obviously in violation of TE's PvP policy, which again, is clearly outlined in Aer's posts.

Giving Horde a reason to think that they ought to expect different treatment than this is setting people up for frustration and drama. Inviting Horde to complain about PvP happening on a PvP server is just plain masochism.


Horde -should- expect different treatment from TE members. TE members, unless in Tol Barad, or a battleground, or a city, should not be running around attacking Horde members willy-nilly. If they are doing so, they are in violation of TE's PvP policy, which is outlined in Aer's posts.

If they are violating the clearly-outlined PvP policy, then the Horde member in question should report such to the guild's officers and leadership. This is best done by sending a PM to an officer, ideally accompanied by a screenshot, even more ideally with information in your combat logs clearly displayed.

08/14/2012 10:52 PMPosted by Stormreavér
My telling Horde to be 'business as usual' whether they're dealing with TE or not is a kindness to everyone involved IMO.


No, it isn't. Because you're inviting Horde players to attack TE members. You're inviting Horde players to treat your own guild as Kill On Sight. TE is a neutral guild. We're not going to attack Horde players without good reason. This is outlined clearly in our PvP policy, which is again outlined in Aer's posts. Quite clearly.

08/14/2012 10:53 PMPosted by Stormreavér
You mean like Tarashan trying to kill his own guildmates?


It was done on Tarashan's Horde Rogue. For IC reasons. On a character who has been known to attack Alliance characters before. At inopportune times.
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90 Gnome Mage
12365
Firstly, thank you very much for taking the time to place the considerable effort and thought into the initial post, Aer. (Including the TL; DR)

Secondly, I had found it, as an officer of TE, very informative, thorough, descriptive, and fair. Though for the most part such happenings are truly few and far in between, there has been confusion for parties involved with incidents of "conflicting" PvP situations before. This has continued unfortunately despite responses and reactive posts at the time for which clarified more than sufficiently. This well made and organized list will hopefully dissuade further occurrences to come within the future. I may foresee many dilemmas and unnecessary drama negated by the aforementioned knowledge given. Such is a wonderful point of reference should those whom are familiar with policy forget or need clarification as well as for those who are completely in the dark as per TE policies for which have aided to shape and build TE into the community it is currently.

I am inclined to agree with the given statements that TE is not attempting in any way to persuade or demand those of other affiliation ( Horde or Alliance) to not report questionable behavior from TE members if seen. Such given is merely a source of preparation and information so that those who may believe they have either seen or experienced misconduct by a member of TE are fully able bring their concerns/evidence forward appropriately and efficiently. Even without proper evidence and documentation may I assure that all given concerns are taken with the utmost seriousness and looked into as far as such may permit. Without evidence it becomes substantially more difficult to do such process and more often than not will lead to no possible actions for those who oversee such matters to pursue.

We apologize for any possible misconceptions or discrepancies; however, all regarding/addressing subjects as this should still be referred to the initial post made above. Should you hold disagreement or believe to be at a misunderstanding of what is stated then please feel free to contact privately one of the numerous listed officers so that your questions may be thoroughly answered at a time of said officer's earliest capability. (Via the as well conveniently listed means of communication)

Thank you once again for the post, Aer.
Edited by Erber on 8/14/2012 11:38 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
11010
No, it isn't. Because you're inviting Horde players to attack TE members. You're inviting Horde players to treat your own guild as Kill On Sight. TE is a neutral guild. We're not going to attack Horde players without good reason. This is outlined clearly in our PvP policy, which is again outlined in Aer's posts. Quite clearly.


This will be disturbing, I know -- but this is a PvP server. PvP will happen. There are a LOT more people out there who don't know and will never CARE what TE's policies are or aren't than those who do. They very happily conduct themselves with the notion that TE are "just other Alliance." Some are red=dead. Some aren't. The guild has been KOS before. Doubtless still is for some folks. This is nothing new.

Demanding "Special Snowflake Treatment" from an enemy faction on the basis that the guild is "neutral" (but with very complex exceptions), and then to further demand that this enemy faction help police the guild with equally complex and burdened processes is ludicrous.

Be neutral. Have principles and rules. But don't burden people outside the guild with knowing and maintaining them. TE members' demonstrated behavior out in the world should be the only thing a Horde player needs to know to judge the guild.

And don't ask for anything in return. Because that creates obligations, that when not met, leave the other guys feeling very angry and cheated. Horde shouldn't feel like they "ought to" hold back just because there's a TE member in front of them. They should be doing so because "Hey, this dude is just picking flowers and waved at me" or something, and they want to. Simple.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
1245
08/15/2012 05:23 AMPosted by Stormreavér
No, it isn't. Because you're inviting Horde players to attack TE members. You're inviting Horde players to treat your own guild as Kill On Sight. TE is a neutral guild. We're not going to attack Horde players without good reason. This is outlined clearly in our PvP policy, which is again outlined in Aer's posts. Quite clearly.


This will be disturbing, I know -- but this is a PvP server. PvP will happen. There are a LOT more people out there who don't know and will never CARE what TE's policies are or aren't than those who do. They very happily conduct themselves with the notion that TE are "just other Alliance." Some are red=dead. Some aren't. The guild has been KOS before. Doubtless still is for some folks. This is nothing new.

Demanding "Special Snowflake Treatment" from an enemy faction on the basis that the guild is "neutral" (but with very complex exceptions), and then to further demand that this enemy faction help police the guild with equally complex and burdened processes is ludicrous.

Be neutral. Have principles and rules. But don't burden people outside the guild with knowing and maintaining them. TE members' demonstrated behavior out in the world should be the only thing a Horde player needs to know to judge the guild.

And don't ask for anything in return. Because that creates obligations, that when not met, leave the other guys feeling very angry and cheated. Horde shouldn't feel like they "ought to" hold back just because there's a TE member in front of them. They should be doing so because "Hey, this dude is just picking flowers and waved at me" or something, and they want to. Simple.


Then leave it up to them to decide. Don't do it for them.

They know our policies, they can read them.

TE is a neutral guild. We're not going to attack without reason. We're not going to gank. TE has a reputation as such, and I know for a fact that I haven't been attacked as often as I could have been because of that reputation, because Horde players know that as long as they aren't aggressive toward me, I'm not going to be aggressive toward them.

I don't -expect- that every Horde player I meet is going to be as nice. That would be ludicrous. But I like that TE's reputation as a guild that isn't going to go around smacking witches upside the head like nobodies business means that some people will simply leave me alone.

A troll Hunter actually saw me running around doing Arch the other day, and instead of attacking me, ran over and showed me all the Archaeology items he had. Was this because I was in TE? Was it because he was nice? Who knows. But the fact that I was in TE more than likely factored into his decision.

So do not tell Horde to attack your own guild. Let them decide on their own based on our policies and reputation.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
11010
08/15/2012 05:47 AMPosted by Slaye
They know our policies, they can read them.


Actually, on the whole they probably don't and wont. Less than 40 views on this thread so far, and I'm willing to bet most of them have been TE running to the rescue or to post or to read other posts.

Don't assume your guild name/reputation has bought you anything. I am almost never attacked on any of my toons, including a member of a known PvP guild (Reprisal). Your behavior protects you more than likely.
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I tend not to attack things unless they look mean. If I /wave at some and they /wave back, I'll probably go cat form and /purr at them.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
14860
TE's unique stance regarding PvP does occasionally cross my mind if I encounter one of them in the wild.

My reaction at that point depends on my mood. Miserable as I am, I'm not usually interested in reaping the whirlwind that an antagonist would. Hopefully a /glare is not interpreted as hostile, considering what else I have in my arsenal.

Thanks for the detailed write-up, Aer.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
1245
08/15/2012 06:16 AMPosted by Stormreavér
They know our policies, they can read them.


Actually, on the whole they probably don't and wont. Less than 40 views on this thread so far, and I'm willing to bet most of them have been TE running to the rescue or to post or to read other posts.

Don't assume your guild name/reputation has bought you anything. I am almost never attacked on any of my toons, including a member of a known PvP guild (Reprisal). Your behavior protects you more than likely.


People know TE. Regardless of the thread. We've been around for five years. I'm pretty sure a majority of the server at least know who we are.
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