Is 25 man dieing?

90 Worgen Druid
11960
On my server there are 0 progression focused 25 man guilds. This kindof bothers me and I was wondering if there are more 25's going to 10 in the genral cataclysm expansion. Is is just that med-low POP servers cant get 25 great players to raid in 1 group or is it just that raiding 10 man is more widely acepted. Would love to see diffrent opinions on if there are more and more 10 man conpaired to 25's and why this is happening on diffrent servers around the world.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
1. Yes its dying, 10s are just easier to keep up with recruitment and easier to manage

2. Being on a terrible server compounds this problem
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90 Worgen Druid
17215
Oh god, hide the baduals, Sub is back.

On topic, the lower the realm pop the less 25s you will see because there are less players to pull from.
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90 Draenei Hunter
16285
The days of the 25-man raids have passed, just as the days of the 40-man raid runs. 25-man runs are exceptionally easy to beat, but have low chances for each player to win gear. Very few people actually care about 'progression' anymore. They just want to power-level through to level cap, gear up as fast as possible, and run end-game content to get all heroic gear. It's hell just trying to pug for a 4.0 raid for achievements because NOBODY wants to do them. If it's not Firelands or Dragon Soul, they aren't interested (and Firelands is another raid that's dying off fast).

Unless you got a team of friends that enjoys progression and achievements, you probably won't see any more 25-man runs for a while (if ever again).
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90 Tauren Druid
7190
08/18/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Rohkeg
25-man runs are exceptionally easy to beat, but have low chances for each player to win gear.


As a 25 raider, I think you have no idea what it's like to run in a 25 raid to make that kind of statement.
Edited by Seiryu on 8/18/2012 3:54 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
11960
Seiryu is right thery are not easier, on some fight where more people is better (like H warmaster) they may have their ups but overall 10 and 25 dificulty is very ballanced and there is actualy around same gear per person, just 25 mans take alot to keep going, like working around 25 diffrent people insted of 10.
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90 Pandaren Mage
0
Smaller (i.e. dead) servers have little to no chance of holding up one, let alone multiple, 25 man guilds. The lack of players/quality recruits to replace the inevitable turnover combined with the sheer organizational nightmare that is 25 man raiding makes it so it's not even worth it to try on most realms. Mine included.
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90 Pandaren Mage
0
Man, I agree in principle. However, it's going to be (and has been) a struggle to hit that critical mass point where it all really comes together and we become attractive to off realm folks. Especially as the server does not offer much in the way of liveliness. Also, replacing our drags (i.e. people who are good for shandris but not good enough for the kind of push you are talking about) has been a slow tough process. yes, we are getting talked to by everyone on Shandris who wants to do any kind of serious raiding, but so many of them are your typical Shandris heroes that is has been very slow going. But I do appreciate your confidence that we can bring it all home like that.
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90 Goblin Shaman
9465
Do LFR, blizz created that awesome thing that is really not killing all the game immersion and that really helps create a better community of gamers! (sarcastic as !@#$)

Goco
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90 Pandaren Mage
0


Oddly enough, NoHope and I are now both in the same guild on Zul'jin now. Shandris isn't a progression realm, which is what hurts in terms of getting critical mass. I know what you mean in terms of people, there is a big quality / expectation gap.

I'm sure you're starting to get the people who call you "elitists" for not taking them into raids, they just don't get the difference between casual and progression raiding. To them it's "try harder". Hell, you guys didn't understand me back in Tier 11, well, outside of Exo / Dru.


The strangest part of the backlash against us is that a good portion of it seems to be directed at Exo. Specifically at him. That really boggles my mind, and makes me question what the hell is wrong with all of those people.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
11310
Our guild would be in favor of some cross server 25's. Also, I think if Blizz worked a 15 man, that would be a happy medium for most on our server, as our server population is down, and it's difficult to keep 25 peeps coming week in and week out.
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52 Blood Elf Warrior
400
It's difficult to do 25s because of everything being nearly equal with 10s. I miss 25s, but it seems Blizz would rather see it die a slow painful death.

And also sub, you mentioned a lot of stereotypical thoughts about 25 man raiding. Not all are like you describe.
Edited by Veraliyth on 8/20/2012 9:32 PM PDT
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6780
It's difficult to do 25s because of everything being nearly equal with 10s. I miss 25s, but it seems Blizz would rather see it die a slow painful death.


Agree. It was an extra indicator of this when they made the achievements for server firsts the same for 10 and 25. I don't think that is not a programming issue, just they did not want to even have that for 25 mans.

But the real issue is that most of the players of WoW are very sensitive to anyone else getting something. I've seen posts with suggestions on how to give just the very little bit something extra to 25 mans to make them a choice more people might want to consider. They cry from people who are currently doing 10 mans was rampant, and talked about being unfair, or forcing people in to 25 man. What a load of hogwash, because when the question is asked then why not make some 5 man raids, then many of the 10 (and 25 man) raiders use the same arguments that they rejects on the topic of 25 man raiding.

The reason that 25 mans are dying is because the majority of players want things easier for the way they play.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6685
08/21/2012 09:46 AMPosted by Wrathbrow
It's difficult to do 25s because of everything being nearly equal with 10s. I miss 25s, but it seems Blizz would rather see it die a slow painful death.


Agree. It was an extra indicator of this when they made the achievements for server firsts the same for 10 and 25. I don't think that is not a programming issue, just they did not want to even have that for 25 mans.

But the real issue is that most of the players of WoW are very sensitive to anyone else getting something. I've seen posts with suggestions on how to give just the very little bit something extra to 25 mans to make them a choice more people might want to consider. They cry from people who are currently doing 10 mans was rampant, and talked about being unfair, or forcing people in to 25 man. What a load of hogwash, because when the question is asked then why not make some 5 man raids, then many of the 10 (and 25 man) raiders use the same arguments that they rejects on the topic of 25 man raiding.

The reason that 25 mans are dying is because the majority of players want things easier for the way they play.


But doesn't the even playing field indicate that the popularity of 25s could have been propped up by their statuses and rewards in earlier expansions?

I think you'd be hard pressed to prove a majority of players want things easier for the way they play. Our motivations for our preferred environment will differ drastically from person to person.

And, last I read through your suggestions on rewarding 25s for merely being more players, I disagreed rather strongly with your notion, as did many other sensible players (in fact I believe I tried to discuss it with you but I don't think you responded much to what I posted). It wasn't crying and portraying it as such only diminishes the credibility of your position.

Right now, 25s are a choice. Exactly what Blizzard intends. It seems ridiculous to argue that because there are more players they deserve to be the mathematically optimal way to play. Your claims have always been that they are harder to run. I have experience with both and I rather strongly disagree with that notion. I believe they may be harder to set up, but harder to run seems to me to be a bit of a distortion of reality. Can you please outline (I distinctly remember asking this and no one responding) what precisely about them makes them harder to run?

As for your 5 man raids, I'll bite. I, frankly, would not care if they made 5 man raids. How does it affect what I do? I suspect that the reason they don't exist is for a combination of mechanical reasons. You really couldn't have a number of the effects current DS has without having them basically result in wipes. They would have to be seriously altered to make them work. Secondly, it wouldn't really promote any form of class diversity. If they did make 5 man raids, I think it might become more difficult to have interesting mechanics for all while preventing certain classes from being able to cheese certain mechanics and being obviously more preferential for the content. To me, 10 seems like the bare minimum they could reduce raids down to and make them work. It is also a great number because before MoP there were 10 classes. Seemed rather fitting to have 10 man raids.

As addressed before, server populations are a lot of the trouble for 25s. Especially for high end content where you just may not have the pool of raiders to pull from. With less people, finding people with meshable attitudes and equal skills becomes more difficult. However, so many of the people that so strongly want to raid 25s are unwilling to move to an environment that would allow that. Blizzard could take some steps to help solve that problem, but must be careful to avoid unnecessarily punishing people that don't want to be a part of that large pool of people.

There are benefits though to 25 man raids. In general they seem to be ignored by the proponents of 25 main groups that feel they deserve more. I maintain that you should not become mathematically superior solely because it is harder to initially create a stable environment. I do believe that 25s could be given some less 'tangible' benefits that may make them more interesting and maybe give people on the fence about them a bit of a push to try them out and see if they enjoy them. I'm all for that. But the moment that you make it about item levels, or basically anything with numbers and optimization, I'm probably not going to be on your side championing for you. That then makes it, for many players, no longer a choice and we are artificially propping up something people may not want to do.

As I said, right now, it can be a choice if you want it to be.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
1670
there are a ton of 25 man guilds on my server, so I can't agree that they are dying. it's preference- so your server might not prefer to have them due to recruitment issues.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6780
08/21/2012 10:39 AMPosted by Seináre
But doesn't the even playing field indicate that the popularity of 25s could have been propped up by their statuses and rewards in earlier expansions?

For sure.
Realistically much of the content in the game is propped up by their statuses and rewards.

08/21/2012 10:39 AMPosted by Seináre
Right now, 25s are a choice. Exactly what Blizzard intends. It seems ridiculous to argue that because there are more players they deserve to be the mathematically optimal way to play. Your claims have always been that they are harder to run. I have experience with both and I rather strongly disagree with that notion. I believe they may be harder to set up, but harder to run seems to me to be a bit of a distortion of reality. Can you please outline (I distinctly remember asking this and no one responding) what precisely about them makes them harder to run?

I think them being a choice as they have made them is a good thing.

I have giving some reasons in the past they require more effort on people both in terms of getting along, getting comfortable with a larger group, working as a team, absences, recruitment. All of those things take effort. Not effort like pew-pewing faster, but personal effort. But for many people they tend to not consider those things any effort of person at all.

So let's consider asking the question the other way, if 10 and 25 man are equal in all or most ways, why are the vast majority of people and guilds who have been raiding to end content of this expansion raiding today in 10 mans not raiding in 25 mans?

I can also see the point from the other side. So 25 mans have been and continue to be on the decline. So what?
It's a fair question, why should we care if the majority of people who play them game prefer the 10 man raid.
If this were a single player game, then heck yeah. But for me since it is an MMO keeping a healthy base on players interested in the current options has value.
If the horde (or alliance) population dropped down to 12 percent of the player base, would the answer be go to a more populate horde server? It would be a reasonable question to ask. Not saying one way is right or wrong, just saying that it all has an effect.

there are a ton of 25 man guilds on my server, so I can't agree that they are dying. it's preference- so your server might not prefer to have them due to recruitment issues.

Some numbers below. Not to say you right or wrong, just to give some numbers.
Wowprogress indicates 14 of 106 guilds that have cleared all heroic content in DS are 25 man. About 13% of the guilds.
For the guilds that have killed at least one DS boss on heroic but not a full heroic clear, looks to be 2 of the remaining 274 guilds are 25 man. Less than 1 percent.
Now, I may of missed on some counts there and not all guilds are probably represented correctly if they make a kill on 10 but do 25 mans. But the numbers are going to be fairly close.

That seems to indicate that your realm is a choice for progression (full heroic clear at some point while content is current even if nerfed) to find some 25 man guilds (14 to be more exact). For people seeking a 25 man guilds that raid in general, not at all a good choice.
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