'Best' Frost DK Rotation

90 Human Death Knight
14900
This goes out to all the OP DK's out there...

1st., I am an iLvl 408 Frost DK
2nd., I do 'roughly' 35k+ on Heroic dummy and roughly 50k+ in Heroic DS with bursts of up to
80k+.

Now here is my dilemma...

Last night I did a Heroic Ragnaros run, and an Assasination Rogue with Legendary Dagger Set kept giving me a run for my money. So I panicked!, as I have never never let any class outperform me in any raid[s]. But then all of a sudden, an Arms Warrior [they were guildies] "without" too much Heroic gear started to pass me by 2-3k DPS as well. [I'm thinking Rogue kept giving him ToT] and I didn't have Kings or Might as no Pally was in grp.

Anyways, I am at a loss here. Does this seem right? Is it what I should expect? I've spent several hours looking through everything past n present about Frost DK's 'maximizing' their DPS. With the gear I have on, I should be doing an 'extra' 5-10k DPS [maybe] somehow, and I am thinking my rotation is 'off'. Here is what I do:

Pestilence>PoF>OB>FS>HB>OB>FS>HoW>FS>RT>OB and continue from there on. My ghoul is macro'd in with PoF also so he is always up. I almost 'never' use PS, and I know I should, but, apart from the weapon damage, refreshing this plague to me is of no greater significant value, as I constantly am reapplying FF with HB. [diseases don't do great amounts of damage, apart from giving OB and FS bigger hits].

So please, I am asking my DK Community for some feedback. How does 'my' DPS compare with yours? 'What' can I do to bring my DPS up? 'What' am I doing wrong? I want to continue hitting the 'hardest' in every raid I do, and keep representing us Death Knights as the 'first' hero Class that we are.

TY

[This is a sincere cry for help in whatever is needed to improve. I don't want to fail again]
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90 Goblin Death Knight
12295
How much dps did you end up with the end of Rag?
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58 Troll Death Knight
3920
You have any logs?
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15390
You do realize you were comparing your dps to two other melee dps that tend to out rank Frost DK in about all fights in DS right? Probably the only fight in heroic 25 that you will see a DK ahead of Arms & Rogue is H Spine and they are Unholy and not Frost. In about all other scenarios an Arms warrior and Rogues will beat you. Look at Heroic Hagara 25 man. The top DW FRost dk is 56k. The top Arms warrior is 70k and all 3 rogue specs are ahead of Frost. The highest rogue was sub doing 68k. The arms warrior even beat the rogues. Get with the times.

btw it's a subtle irony that you're comparing your dps to Assassination rogues that tend to be behind Combat & Sub most of the time. That is right you were getting the run for your money with a sub optimal rogue to boot.
Edited by Tor on 8/21/2012 12:49 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Death Knight
14370
keep blood plague up....you are losing more damage then you think.

I dont really think you looked over all the DK guides and info if you are deciding for yourself that diseases are not important.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15390
http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/zuluhed/hellsangels/

Where is this 50k dps/80k spikes you speak of?


Probably 50k with enough damage stacks on Zon'ozz or enough aoe add spawns on yor'sahj. The 80k is likely Madness spell weave procs. 35k on target dummy is doable especially with Creche and it's randomness giving you extra crits. He did say "roughly 35k"

I do get where you are coming from though. At least as that site goes the fights he has shown has some of them like Ultraxion in the 30% range and not the 95% he seems to claim. Then again even the last sparse for my dk was from like 4 months ago in a 25 man normal. No one in my raids has put up a log since then. His last madness though was on the 6th and had him in the 32 percent range doing only 46,707.

Something could be missing in there though it was also a 10 man heroic and some buffs could be missing. Just not enough to account for like 33.3k less dps than he claims he can get. I'm not that great but the last sparses I had for madness on 25 man normal had me at 86% on the low side and 96 percentile for the high end. and that 4 to 5 months ago.
Edited by Tor on 8/21/2012 2:13 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
12905
some classes are just better than us. we have been low to midtier dps for most of this expansion due to buffs and nerfs.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15390
08/21/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Kusari
some classes are just better than us. we have been low to midtier dps for most of this expansion due to buffs and nerfs.


Then again most players only have the experience of the people they raid with. If they're playing at the like 75% for their class and another is playing to the 30-40% range then the one class will feel as if they're a god and the other the same raid will demand they get nerfed. When in actuality neither of them are playing at full strength to really weigh which class is strongest.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
12905
08/21/2012 02:25 PMPosted by Tor
some classes are just better than us. we have been low to midtier dps for most of this expansion due to buffs and nerfs.


Then again most players only have the experience of the people they raid with. If they're playing at the like 75% for their class and another is playing to the 30-40% range then the one class will feel as if they're a god and the other the same raid will demand they get nerfed. When in actuality neither of them are playing at full strength to really weigh which class is strongest.

true im just saying in some cases its not gonna matter how geared or skilled you are barring gimmicky fights some classes/specs just scale way better
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15390
08/21/2012 02:28 PMPosted by Kusari


Then again most players only have the experience of the people they raid with. If they're playing at the like 75% for their class and another is playing to the 30-40% range then the one class will feel as if they're a god and the other the same raid will demand they get nerfed. When in actuality neither of them are playing at full strength to really weigh which class is strongest.

true im just saying in some cases its not gonna matter how geared or skilled you are barring gimmicky fights some classes/specs just scale way better


Arms warriors are just overpowered at least for DS but they have been for a while. The funny part is where Fury is more equal to Frost compared but some how Arms is not only able to pass up Legendary Casters but also Rogues in some fights. Just hellsangels must never have seen a good Arms warrior in the flesh. I couldn't even convince warriors to move away from Fury and try Arms :(

p.s. I'm one of those players that welcomes players to do what ever it takes to kill bosses and in an ideal scenario I'm glad to be the lowest on the meters. As long as everyone is doing their best it doesn't really matter who is top.
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90 Orc Death Knight
7925
08/21/2012 12:06 PMPosted by Hellsangels
2nd., I do 'roughly' 35k+ on Heroic dummy and roughly 50k+ in Heroic DS with bursts of up to


Irrelevant, mostly, unless you're talking about a non-gimmicky fight.

08/21/2012 12:06 PMPosted by Hellsangels
Last night I did a Heroic Ragnaros run, and an Assasination Rogue with Legendary Dagger Set kept giving me a run for my money. So I panicked!, as I have never never let any class outperform me in any raid[s]. But then all of a sudden, an Arms Warrior [they were guildies] "without" too much Heroic gear started to pass me by 2-3k DPS as well. [I'm thinking Rogue kept giving him ToT] and I didn't have Kings or Might as no Pally was in grp.


Go to raidbots.com, and check the rankings for just Heroic Ultraxion or Heroic (anything without a gimmick). You have no chance against an equally skilled/similarly geared warrior or rogue.

08/21/2012 12:06 PMPosted by Hellsangels
With the gear I have on, I should be doing an 'extra' 5-10k DPS [maybe] somehow, and I am thinking my rotation is 'off'


You don't have a rotation, you have a priority system. No one can help you without logs.

08/21/2012 12:06 PMPosted by Hellsangels
Pestilence>PoF>OB>FS>HB>OB>FS>HoW>FS>RT>OB and continue from there on. My ghoul is macro'd in with PoF also so he is always up. I almost 'never' use PS, and I know I should, but, apart from the weapon damage, refreshing this plague to me is of no greater significant value, as I constantly am reapplying FF with HB. [diseases don't do great amounts of damage, apart from giving OB and FS bigger hits].


Once again, no such thing as a rotation for us so no one can help you without a log. Also, you need to apply both diseases....that's not up for any sort of debate (check the tooltip on Obliterate and do the math to see why); if you don't know this then you have bigger problems than your priority system.

08/21/2012 12:06 PMPosted by Hellsangels
I want to continue hitting the 'hardest' in every raid I do, and keep representing us Death Knights as the 'first' hero Class that we are.


Hero class just means we start at Level 55 and get some good blue gear at the start. Nothing more, nothing less. We're near bottom of the barrel single-target dps (as Frost) or mediocre (as Unholy). Not that we can't compete, because the difference between every class and spec is fairly close now, but don't expect anything extra because of the "hero" moniker.

In any case, if you're doing something wrong we need logs to tell you anything of value.
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90 Human Death Knight
18165
Just realize we are highly RNG oriented and we really aren't the best dps wise atm.

There also isn't a 'best frost DK' rotation as it relies heavily on RNG procs and how well you react to them, nothing is set in stone.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15390
Just realize we are highly RNG oriented and we really aren't the best dps wise atm.

There also isn't a 'best frost DK' rotation as it relies heavily on RNG procs and how well you react to them, nothing is set in stone.


While Frost is RNG. Frost's dps is not as varied as Unholy. Frost is actually extremely consistent through an entire fight which is actually a great thing throughout a fight. It's unholy that has more varied of a dps and in their case timing hurts them where it doesn't really for frost. So lets not start a whole "rng" into frost's dps because truly if you're dual wield it is random but not enough once you have enough haste. In fact it's so reliable that our dps hits it's higher area more than many other classes likely easier. Random number generator doesn't hurt our dps anywhere near close to many class specs in the game. No excuses.

The only rng that greatly changes our dps is really crits on top of killing machine because actually Killing Machine happens extremely often enough that our dps varies by maybe 1k while an unholy can varied by 3-4 times that just single target.
Edited by Tor on 8/21/2012 4:15 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Death Knight
12295
Just realize we are highly RNG oriented and we really aren't the best dps wise atm.

There also isn't a 'best frost DK' rotation as it relies heavily on RNG procs and how well you react to them, nothing is set in stone.


While Frost is RNG. Frost's dps is not as varied as Unholy. Frost is actually extremely consistent through an entire fight which is actually a great thing throughout a fight. It's unholy that has more varied of a dps and in their case timing hurts them where it doesn't really for frost. So lets not start a whole "rng" into frost's dps because truly if you're dual wield it is random but not enough once you have enough haste. In fact it's so reliable that our dps hits it's higher area more than many other classes likely easier. Random number generator doesn't hurt our dps anywhere near close to many class specs in the game. No excuses.

The only rng that greatly changes our dps is really crits on top of killing machine because actually Killing Machine happens extremely often enough that our dps varies by maybe 1k while an unholy can varied by 3-4 times that just single target.


IMO unholy strength can make a significant difference if it doesn't proc at certain times such as prepot and lust phases
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90 Goblin Death Knight
9430
08/21/2012 12:06 PMPosted by Hellsangels
diseases don't do great amounts of damage, apart from giving OB and FS bigger hits
Blood Plague doesn't affect FS at all, the only damage you're losing is the initial damage from PS, the dot from BP, and the increased damage for OB.

and keep representing us Death Knights as the 'first' hero Class that we are.
The only thing that makes us a hero class is the fact that we start the class at level 55. Personally, I would love to play a DK from level 1, but that's just me. Otherwise, we are just like any other class.

This is a sincere cry for help in whatever is needed to improve. I don't want to fail again
You're coming third in DPS, you'll live.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
08/21/2012 12:06 PMPosted by Hellsangels
2nd., I do 'roughly' 35k+ on Heroic dummy


no you don't

we're simming as one of the lowest single target dps this tier, and the highest frost dk in the world on ultrax is rank 1270 overall

anyway, we can't tell how far off you are from what you should be if you're not giving an honest description of your numbers

anyway, post logs, go make some in lfr if you must
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90 Human Death Knight
14900
I could be wrong on spec.
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90 Human Death Knight
14900
Just realize we are highly RNG oriented and we really aren't the best dps wise atm.

There also isn't a 'best frost DK' rotation as it relies heavily on RNG procs and how well you react to them, nothing is set in stone.


I meant Priority, not rotation. :)
Edited by Hellsangels on 8/22/2012 10:58 AM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
9215
I used to raid as frost so here it is whyat I use for optimal boss DPS:
Pop all cooldown except army and Empower Rune Weapon, those are for lust.
Raise Dead, Pillar of Frost, Any on use trinkets, Any pots, Outbreak
Obliterate and frost strike spam, use howling blast when Rime procs
30 seconds gone by? Plague strike
Obliterate frost strike spam, using howling blast procs
30 seconds gone by? Outbreak, Any one use trinkets, Pillar of frost
Obliterate and Frost strike spam don't forget howling blast
30 seconds gone by? Plague strike
and so forth. Until Lust
Lust? Army, Re-Pot, Any other cooldowns you have like trinkets, pillar, ghoul etc.
Get 3 obliterates out
Empower rune weapon, 3 more

So pretty much priority is keeping your Debuffs up and obliterate.

Also don't forget to be using blood tap whenever you can for a free rune.

Also I don't know why or how you don't know this if you're 408, but seriously dude, come on. Oh also rogues and warriors are better than frost.
Edited by Stompehh on 8/22/2012 11:31 AM PDT
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