Mage Mana Regen Broken

90 Human Mage
IQ
8250
Got the numbers off your chart Lhiv.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
Batar: unless spell data has changed recently, I believe zero stacks is 1.25%.

Edit: I'll double check my chart!
Edited by Lhivera on 8/29/2012 3:02 PM PDT
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90 Human Mage
IQ
8250
08/29/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Incendium
I already knew Arcane would be broken after the patch because through testing I was doing literally 7k less dps no matter how I practiced Arcane. AB just takes far too much mana with high stacks (>4) that it's likely that anyone would find the optimal dps rotation to be a non-burn or minimal burn endeavor.


Race change brah? And yes its lower which to me means something is way off. Arcane has the worst scaling of the 3 specs, close to frost, yet the sims say we are equal, so those level 90 talents must add a truckload of damage for arcane 20%-30% range.

Edit: Or all of us are somehow butchering the rotation, or whatever ya call that current mess.
Edited by Batar on 8/29/2012 3:07 PM PDT
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
Arcane is definitely more affected by the L90 talents than the other two specs. It's also potentially more significantly affected by Alter Time than Fire is. Wouldn't be surprising if it lags until 90 and evens up at that point.
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100 Human Mage
14170
Question...where are you pulling your regen numbers from?

Without buffs and without even an armor active...
I have 11,147 mp5 | 11,537 mp5 with set bonus
Cast time: 1.79s which comes out to just shy of 4% regen(3990 mpab).
Mana cost per stack
0 | 1,500
1 | 3,375
2 | 5,250
3 | 7,125
4 | 9,000
5 | 10,875
6 | 12,750

So I was wrong in theory, however, in practice...
With at most 1.51s between casts...(I know)
0 stack cast: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p233/Wildcolt/World%20of%20Warcraft/Stack0.jpg
1 stack cast: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p233/Wildcolt/World%20of%20Warcraft/Stack1.jpg
2 stack cast: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p233/Wildcolt/World%20of%20Warcraft/Stack2.jpg
3 stack cast: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p233/Wildcolt/World%20of%20Warcraft/Stack3.jpg
4 stack cast: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p233/Wildcolt/World%20of%20Warcraft/Stack4.jpg
5 stack cast: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p233/Wildcolt/World%20of%20Warcraft/Stack5.jpg

And as a continuation, i chain casted with 0 delay between casts and found I still recover to full before cast #3. When the fourth cast arrives, I'm at 98k.
As seen here: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p233/Wildcolt/World%20of%20Warcraft/chaincastregen.jpg
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100 Undead Mage
17820


Race change brah? And yes its lower which to me means something is way off. Arcane has the worst scaling of the 3 specs, close to frost, yet the sims say we are equal, so those level 90 talents must add a truckload of damage for arcane 20%-30% range.

Edit: Or all of us are somehow butchering the rotation, or whatever ya call that current mess.


What? I have always been undead, I just usually am not wearing PvP gear, I am usually using my awesome hm t11 with the hood on.

Anyway, I was never really trying to argue that Fire or Frost should be more mana intensive. What I am talking about pertains to level 85 (and really is only relevant until September 25th)

Arcane's regeneration is abysmal in 5.0.4 at level 85. Fire and Frost on the other hand do not even need to look at their mana bar. I mean not even over an entire 15 minute madness kill or even a 40 minute AV without dying. You just don't have to with the haste levels we are at.
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100 Human Mage
14170
08/29/2012 05:40 PMPosted by Incendium
Arcane's regeneration is abysmal in 5.0.4 at level 85. Fire and Frost on the other hand do not even need to look at their mana bar. I mean not even over an entire 15 minute madness kill or even a 40 minute AV without dying. You just don't have to with the haste levels we are at.

Has nothing to do with haste, has everything to do with how the spec is supposed to be played.
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90 Night Elf Mage
14980
Mana regen is definitely higher at 85 on live now than it is on the Beta.

About a week ago, I recopied my mage just to test rotations at 85. I had to use Evocation every three minutes or so just doing my normal single target rotation (while weaving in Mana Gem usage to avoid having to Evo as much).

Now on live, I don't have to mana gem or evocation unless I'm spamming Blizzard or something. My mana is seldom slipping below 90% on single target dummy rotations. Something with Mana regen was changed (or will be changed) going from 5.0.4 to MoP.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
OK, yes, the Arcane Blast numbers on my chart are correct, the ones I posted above are wrong. I inverted the multiplier (1.25) and the base cost (1.5).
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100 Undead Mage
17820
08/29/2012 05:43 PMPosted by Ghobe
Has nothing to do with haste, has everything to do with how the spec is supposed to be played.


I really don't think you are getting what I am saying, and trust me, you don't need to lecture me on "how the spec is played". The simple fact is that you will not get nearly as much dps now as Arcane as you will with Fire or Frost. Hell, I doubt you would even get the same numbers as you did pre-5.0.4 (this all assumes 85). It doesn't matter how you play the spec, you are losing dps from pre-5.0.4.

08/29/2012 05:59 PMPosted by Steehl
Mana regen is definitely higher at 85 on live now than it is on the Beta.


Agreed and confirmed, because in the same gear I had on the beta it took me 12 ABs to go oom, now it seems to take me 13-14.
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100 Human Mage
14170
08/29/2012 06:25 PMPosted by Incendium
I really don't think you are getting what I am saying, and trust me, you don't need to lecture me on "how the spec is played". The simple fact is that you will not get nearly as much dps now as Arcane as you will with Fire or Frost. Hell, I doubt you would even get the same numbers as you did pre-5.0.4 (this all assumes 85). It doesn't matter how you play the spec, you are losing dps from pre-5.0.4.

I get more dps with the spec now than I did last patch, it's just not as good as frost or fire...and you know Blizzard's policy, they don't focus very hard on balance during leveling, and 85 is now considered leveling range instead of endgame.
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100 Undead Mage
17820
08/29/2012 06:28 PMPosted by Ghobe
I get more dps with the spec now than I did last patch, it's just not as good as frost or fire...and you know Blizzard's policy, they don't focus very hard on balance during leveling, and 85 is now considered leveling range instead of endgame.


can you post your logs? I would love to see them myself. I know they don't balance for 85, but once again that wasn't part of the conversation.
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90 Human Mage
10015
08/29/2012 06:25 PMPosted by Incendium
The simple fact is that you will not get nearly as much dps now as Arcane as you will with Fire or Frost. Hell, I doubt you would even get the same numbers as you did pre-5.0.4 (this all assumes 85). It doesn't matter how you play the spec, you are losing dps from pre-5.0.4.


That's likely true. It's also something I doubt the devs are particularly concerned about. Numbers are simply no longer tuned around 85.

Basically, two points of view being talked past each other:

- Couple people are saying, hey, the new mana design means Arcane is suffering relative to Fire and Frost at 85. These people are correct.

- Couple people saying, the new mana design is not inherently imbalanced; Arcane works well and competitively with it at 90. These people are also correct.
Edited by Lhivera on 8/29/2012 6:46 PM PDT
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100 Undead Mage
17820
For the sake of supporting my own words, I went into a LFR to test out my dps as Arcane. (after testing myself out a bit on dummies to make sure I wasn't wasting too much mana or forgetting bomb.)

Regen is definitely a lot different from the beta from what I can tell, and doing the first 4 I compared my DPS to some of my previous logs in LFR. Now I feel it is important to say that the numbers should be taken with a grain of salt; there are problems with my collection method. For example, I am using Recount to log my 5.0.4 attempts, which generally rates your dps higher than it actually is (it doesnt do eDps as far as I know). Also, I obviously won't play the spec nearly as well now as I did in the LFR from 4.0.3, so factor that in, but here are the numbers:

5.0.4 - http://i48.tinypic.com/sewrk5.png

Morchok: 36,628

Zon'ozz: 57,628

Yor'sajh: 46,736

Hagara: 41,679

4.0.3 - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-5s6kyd64szozwtou/

Morchok: 46,341.2 (45,991.1)*

Zon'ozz: 76,392.2 (74,586.9)*

Yor'sajh: 42,020.2 (41,357.5)*

Hagara: 56,845.0 (49057.9)*

* denotes eDPS

Sure, these aren't definitive numbers. But it gives you an idea. I actually felt a lot better on Yor'sajh with 5.0.4 because even if he caught me with a blue orb without evocation, my mana could fly up regardless, and the numbers above show that I definitely improved on that fight.

The other fights though, Arcane 5.0.4 can't hold a candle to 4.0.3
Edited by Incendium on 8/29/2012 7:55 PM PDT
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100 Human Mage
14170
Truth be told I didn't use arcane in DS so I have no logs to compare with, I just remember never breaking 30k....ever(well...excluding zon'ozz xP).

Keep in mind...pretty sure my gear is worse than yours ;p (QQ no real guild, recruit me omg)

Morchok 32.8k: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p233/Wildcolt/World%20of%20Warcraft/ArcaneDPS1.jpg
^I forgot to maintain cooldowns and NT.
Zon'Ozz 56.7k: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p233/Wildcolt/World%20of%20Warcraft/ArcaneDPS2.jpg
^I felt pretty good about this...except for the fact I hovered around 60k mana because I'm a moron.
Yor'Sahj 37.3k: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p233/Wildcolt/World%20of%20Warcraft/ArcaneDPS3.jpg
^Probably should have focused on the boss more than spamming NT on all the adds for lolnumberseverywhere xP
Hagara 35.5k: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p233/Wildcolt/World%20of%20Warcraft/ArcaneDPS4.jpg
^Dat heroism 3 seconds before lightning phase.

As far as I'm concerned, Arcane still got a buff or my rng is amazing right now in comparison to before xP
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
OK, it looks like passive combat regeneration has been doubled -- on both live and in beta, it is now 2%/sec, plus haste.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
OK, helps if I catch up on the last couple days of blue posts in the beta forum. Mage Mana regen has been doubled as a temporary measure to prop up Arcane in the absence of the Level 90 talents. It will scale down while leveling from 85 to 90:

85: 2.0% / sec
86: 1.8% / sec
87: 1.6% / sec
88: 1.4% / sec
89: 1.2% / sec
90: 1.0% / sec

The scaling down part isn't implemented yet.
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100 Draenei Mage
19910
On Yor'sahj last tonight, my passive regen playing fire was so high that I never hit 0% mana or got interrupted because of a resource issue when any mana voids were coming down.

You don't even need to use a single mana gem charge or evocate a single time on H Madness anymore. I know it's not the top priority, but they should really try to balance level 85 - especially since we have to play it for another month.
Edited by Ryegeleye on 8/30/2012 5:17 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Mage
11110
I'm guessing that the mana regen change came with the realm restarts yesterday? Also, this still doesn't address the issue. It tries to put a patch on a big hole in the dam. Yes, it might solve to curb some the mana issues (which it still doesn't do near enough compared to the other specs atm) at present, but Arcane should never have been designed around the lvl 90 talents.

The spec should have been built such that the talents are supporting factors along the way, not a major component of their playstyle abilities. The present mana issues severely inhibits Arcane the chance to compete for the next month b/c balance regarding our mastery as it relates to mana regen between the specs of our class was not looked at well (possibly even not at all b/c it seems the design revolves around the lvl 90 talents). You can clearly see given posts from others that b/c of this oversight in the design process, that there is a very wide gap in dps due to our mana regen abilities as it ties in with our mastery.

Also as other have stated, you can just fire away with spells in the other specs now. It's not balanced as it should be. I would have expected better from our dev team than skipping some of the detail like this. And yes, I know we have a month until MoP and all of this might seem a little trivial then, but the game design/balance should have been fixed for present and 90; not just one or the other. I know scaling was used, but, in this case, the scaling design is very flawed at present.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
You're talking about one month of severely nerfed content at the tail end of an expansion. I'm not saying you're wrong that Arcane's going to find it a harder time to deal with, but it just doesn't seem very important relative to continuing work on fine-tuning stuff for the new level cap.
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