Cookie cutter is even more cookie cutter

1 Dwarf Paladin
0
I see a lot of blue posts on MMO-Champ about the devs wanting constructive feed-back. I just thought I'd share a few of my views after getting some actual experience with the new system in place with 25m heroic DS last night.

I play a d/h priest and used to sit at the top of the meters every fight. Things are a little bit different now, and not necessarily in a bad way. I had been following along with beta players about the status of healing priests and was terrified to meet the patch, but things werent so bad. There were fights were I definitely pulled out ahead, and other fights where another healer really shined. It hurt my ego a little, but I’ll live.

In regards to the mana issue, I found I was very dependent on shaman healers for their mana tide totem, and I was very focused on making sure I used MindBender on CD. I start using MB the minute I hit 70-75% mana. Mana wasnt really a problem, although at times I started to worry I'd go oom and be out the rest of the fight, but regen seemed to be handled as I have spirit on every piece of gear with the exception of a belt/ring/weapon.

The part I really dont like is that this new system has made characters even more cookie cutter than they ever have been in the history of my wow playing (Wotlk baby). I thought that's what devs were trying to steer away from, but the new changes at THIS point in the game make the game boring. Perhaps things will change at level 90 (the 6th tier seems like it will be really be fun to get to use), but the current tier talents are mostly useless for priests, the glyphs are overall lackluster. Heres some specific examples...
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1 Dwarf Paladin
0
First with disc. I really liked a lot of the options I had in cata.

In the first tier, when I felt I had enough mana to spam heals, I really didnt need mental agility and could spend those talents else where. Many priests liked having the option using this and then not having spirit on gear. This was not cookie cutter.

In the second tier, I chose to go the route of atonement, but I know lots of priests who preferred not to spend their talents there. I used atonement for a big single target and cheap heal. I also didnt go into Inner Sanctum because I didnt plan on spending a lot of time standing in fire. But many priests chose opposite of me. Not cookie cutter.

Third tier, there are obvious choices, and then a forced choice if you use atonement

Fourth tier, rapture is obvious, but for a while there, I didnt go into borrowed time because I felt I need the points in other places and 6 seconds wasnt that long, and I'm not a shield spammer and couldnt otain a large amount of uptime on the buff. Later I went into borrowed time, especially using it for shadowfiend so it could gain the haste buff to get back more mana. Reflective shield is kind of boring and doesnt have much place in PVE but in pvp situations I can see how it would help especially in arenas. So, some choices here...

Fifth tier is another choice option. In FL i used strength of soul because I found in some of the fights it was really important to throw out another shield on the tank/dps (baleroc) as soon as possible. When I found myself using atonement more in DS I specced out of SoS. I also have always been more of an AOE healer (yes in disc it can be done), so I never chose train of thought, but I can see how a tank healer would obviously choose this talent. Again, look at the choices provided, not cookie cutter. Obviously gives you an option of being strong in single target heals.

Sixth tier is again more of a pvp vs pve situation. Focused will is pretty boring for pve imo and grace is obviously a yes.

And of course barrier. But this was also optional, which I really liked because I found barrier to be boring occasionally and not provide much of a healing boost (I didn’t glyph into it because I didn’t find it that much more useful, but I knew lots of people who did).

Other talents from other tiers provide more options. Divine fury and empowered healing seem pretty much obvious. Dont think many discs used improved renew as we didnt renew often, but at this point you could then choose from the second tier in holy to go for free heals with surge of light (did that for a while, but the proc was too low for my taste) or inspiration. I knew a priest who used desperate prayer for a large heal on himself. But I chose to go into the shadow tree for Darkness.

See all the choices?? see how that wasnt cookie cutter? I could relay another long in detail post about why there were also choices in the holy tree. Some of which are useless, others of which I love to have the choice of not using (like spirit of redemption, hated that and thought it useless. If I'm dying its usually cuz others are dying and its a wipe anyway. But some healers liked it) and others which I thought would give me an advantage because of the way I healed and the way my raid operated.
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1 Dwarf Paladin
0
Now, the choices are gone and whats left are some useless talets that I'll hardly ever use. In mop I'm forced to choose from moves I'll never use as a healer.

First tier: I should never have aggro so psyfiend wont really be used. Dominate mind has no place in current pve. I dont see how this will benefit a healing priest when I should be healing. And void tendrils is a cc that maybe will come in use later, but will most likely be undertaken by spriests in the raid as I dont focus on mobs, I focus on the raid. Most boring tier imo.

Second tier: This seems obvious. Phantasm is pretty much reserved to PVP with the constant slows/snares, but angelic feathers require the raid to perform, which all holy priests know doesnt happen (lightwell). So body and soul is obvious and I used it last night. Its meh...doesnt really make me unique, the talent is expendible. Poor thought on that tier.

Third tier: At the current level, I would LIKE to use solace, but I'm so reliant on MB. From the math, it looks like at lvl 90 I might be able to use solace, guess we'll see. I LOVE FDCL but I'm useless without mana, and feel forced to go into MB because of that. So I'm forced to choose for the current time being.

Fourth tier: I didnt use desperate prayer before, and SG looks like a pvp or at the very least a shadow choice to drop aggro, so obviously I chose AB. Pretty much forced choice.

Fifth tier: This is maybe the ONLY tier at this point in time where there are actually choices, and the ONLY tier for healing priests where I can see the devs actually did a good job.

As far as glyphs go, these need COMPLETE revamping imo. I like the minor glyphs and the approach to make a toon and the appearance of things different. But I've also never been about appearance, I've always focused on performance. The major glyphs are messy. I dont have a lot of options, if any, as far as disc goes. I'm forced to go into smite/holy fire. I guess PW:S is the next best alternative, but it doesnt provide that much of a benefit. I guess it might allow a rapture to proc faster, but the healing part of the glyph would cause overhealing done in most situations. Its never been my general approach to shield random raid damage. I usually actually heal until someone is full health and keep shields for tanks or DPS with agro and just don’t see the healing part of the glyph to help all that much. Desperation is a joke in PVE, i dont find spell damage to be hard to heal through on myself so inner fire is dumb, inner focus/levitate is more PVP, leave of faith has no utility in raids as it stands, mass dispell has no use right now, I'm used to standing still while casting so penance doesnt really provide me with an advantage, prayer of mending is overall actually the reverse of an advantage. You are taking away an entire heal for only a 60% stronger initial heal. This lowers overall healing. I know it can help the person who's about to take a hard hit, but damage is so aoe right now, that I prefer PoM to have more charges, I guess renew is an alternative but I feel silly if I start working that into my rotation...and the disc priest who starts holy nova-ing for raid heals imo is just foolish. Boring, boring, boring :(

I also have a DK alt that I play. I took one look at the glyphs and felt that NONE of them increased dps. Perhaps this is what devs want: to stay away from them so that the choices arent cookie cutter for max dps. But I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that according to many of the fan base that I've talked to (yes its not many, but enough to make me feel this is broken for a dk), this is NOT what they want. They want dps booster talents/glyphs. And if devs want to find a way to stay away from cookie cutter choices, I encourage them to find another way rather than remove all obvious choices and leave you with boring ones. Maybe add another feature in the game? Idk.

All in all: The talents that allow me to be an exellent single target healer are gone. The abilities that let me aoe heal better are few. Could these things all change and have better usage at max level - quite possibly. I dont have experience as a lvl 90 priest. I really REALLY hope the problems I see and mentioned are negated at lvl 90 and actually are useful and provide a unique raiding experience. Because the things that did before now are gone (less choices, useless tier talents, boring glyphs).
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85 Draenei Priest
14060
1) Don't post giant anonymous threads. If you have a point to make, don't hide behind a level 1 alt.
2) Your old talents are baseline. You didn't lose anything unless it was explicitly changed/removed.
3) Glyphs and talents are meant to be situational things you swap in and out every fight.

The current system is better than forcing every druid into a 0/0/61 spec.

08/30/2012 09:05 AMPosted by Demadex
I'm used to standing still while casting so penance doesnt really provide me with an advantage, prayer of mending is overall actually the reverse of an advantage.

Statements like this make me wonder if you even tried to look at the bigger picture. Disc had nothing to cast on the move if the target had weakened soul. PoM always has 1-2 charges left when it comes off cooldown, which means the glyph is only worse on aura fights with Divine Insight.
Edited by Mint on 8/30/2012 9:29 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
11245
3) Glyphs and talents are meant to be situational things you swap in and out every fight.

The current system is better than forcing every druid into a 0/0/71 spec.


Agree with this. I think there is more to think about now in the talent trees. And for progression you will be swapping talents. If DS was current and un nerfed i would have at least two if not three different builds depending on the fights. And once your level 90 talents come into affect (at least for shaman) there are even more builds you can go with depending on incoming damage and mechanics.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13490
08/30/2012 09:05 AMPosted by Demadex
From the math, it looks like at lvl 90 I might be able to use solace, guess we'll see.


You won't.

At 85

Mind Buddy

0% Haste -- 14610 returned
14.49% -- 16070/16071 returned
40.09% (Seal proc) -- 18992/18993 returned

Shadowfriend

0% -- 24000 returned
14.49% -- 27000 returned
40.09% -- 33000 returned

Solace Casts Needed to Equal Mind Buddy Return

Solace returns 700 mana per cast.

0% -- 24000/3 = 8000 per minute; 14610 - 8000 = 6610/700 = 9.44 casts
14.49% -- 27000/3 = 9000 per minute; 16070 - 9000 = 7070/700 = 10.1 casts
40.09% -- 33000/3 = 11000 per minute; 18992 - 11000 = 7992/700 = 11.41 casts

Time Spent Casting Solace to Equal/Slightly Exceed Mind Buddy Return

Rounding the decimals up.

0% -- 1.5 x 10 = 15 seconds
14.49% -- 1.31 x 11 = 14.41 seconds
40.09% -- 1.07 x 12 = 12.84 seconds

If you're unfortunate enough to be at low mana with SF on cooldown for over a minute:

0% -- 1.5 x 21 (14610/700) = 31.5 seconds
14.49% -- 1.31 x 23 (16070/700) = 30 seconds
40.09% -- 1.07 x 27 (18992/700) = 29 seconds

At 90

(Note, I was lazier when I was doing my beta testing; I did it before the 85 test, so I only have it at one Haste level, which was fairly low.)

Mindbender:

1st test: 48211 mana gained (10 hits, 1 crit)
2nd test: 43826 mana gained (9 hits, 2 crits)
3rd test: 48212 mana gained (10 hits, 1 glancing)

Amount of time spent casting Solace to match:

1st: 23 Solace casts = 32.43 seconds (cast time is 1.41 at my current level of haste)
2nd: 21 Solace casts = 29.61 seconds
3rd: 23 Solace casts = 32.43 seconds

That's assuming Shadowfriend is on CD and you really, really need the mana.

If he isn't, you should get back 81k mana at 90 (at least I did with mine), per 3 minutes (he's on a 3m CD now), or 27k per minute. If you're getting back 2.1k mana per Solace hit, which you will at 90, that still means 10 Solace casts or 14.1 seconds of casting (at 1.41 second cast time, which will vary)—essentially 1/4 of your time.

Conclusions

The main issue with Solace+Shadowfriend is that you can only gain Shadowfiend's mana once per 3 minutes. I actually don't even like averaging Shadowfriend's gains out on a per-minute basis, because that's not how the mana will operate in game.

With the "springy" model of regen we'll probably see, priests working with Solace/Shadowfriend will likely have to deal with a much longer "Mana Neutral" period, and will be less capable of frequent "Mana Burn" periods.
Edited by Elethia on 8/30/2012 9:42 AM PDT
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1 Dwarf Paladin
0
08/30/2012 09:18 AMPosted by Mint
1) Don't post giant anonymous threads. If you have a point to make, don't hide behind a level 1 alt.


Sorry this merfs you so much. It honestly was just the one that popped up when I decided to make a post. No hiding intended, nor do I see why I would need to. I told you what I played. Your comment is /eyerolling.

08/30/2012 09:18 AMPosted by Mint
2) Your old talents are baseline. You didn't lose anything unless it was explicitly changed/removed.


The ONLY thing I complaining about is the lack of choice, hense the post title. I liked to be able to choose that if I didnt want a specific talent, I could talent else where. The places where they did give choices, the choices are overall boring, some useful, mostly unsatisfying imo, and directed towards priests. Perhaps that is something I faulted on, that I should have mentioned priests in the title. I dont know about healing druids (in reference to your comment on them), nor do I play one. If druids having something against their current changes, let them blog. I was merely commenting on PRIESTS ONLY, no one else.

08/30/2012 09:18 AMPosted by Mint
Statements like this make me wonder if you even tried to look at the bigger picture. Disc had nothing to cast on the move if the target had weakened soul. PoM always has 1-2 charges left when it comes off cooldown, which means the glyph is only worse on aura fights with Divine Insight.


Question...where am I EVER on the move in DS where this would happen? I honestly cant pick out ONE place where someone had WS and needed a fast hard single target heal that i couldnt provide. I can easily stop, cast and continue on my way, all mechanics carried out appropriately. And your comment about PoM, there are PLENTY of times where PoM is out of charges and still on CD (during cataclysm, during black phase on Zon'ozz, during aoe on spine). Statements like this make me wonder if you actually play a priest.
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08/30/2012 09:51 AMPosted by Demadex
Question...where am I EVER on the move in DS where this would happen? I honestly cant pick out ONE place where someone had WS and needed a fast hard single target heal that i couldnt provide. I can easily stop, cast and continue on my way, all mechanics carried out appropriately. And your comment about PoM, there are PLENTY of times where PoM is out of charges and still on CD (during cataclysm, during black phase on Zon'ozz, during aoe on spine). Statements like this make me wonder if you actually play a priest.


DS is now old content. The talents are designed for level 90, not level 85.

edit: In other words, it no longer matters how often you move, or don't move, in DS so it is a pointless question.
Edited by Morenn on 8/30/2012 10:03 AM PDT
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90 Troll Mage
15790
08/30/2012 09:51 AMPosted by Demadex
Question...where am I EVER on the move in DS where this would happen?


They didn't change the builds and such to balance or benefit lvl 85 or cata raids...
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90 Tauren Druid
18780
08/30/2012 09:51 AMPosted by Demadex
The ONLY thing I complaining about is the lack of choice, hense the post title. I liked to be able to choose that if I didnt want a specific talent, I could talent else where. The places where they did give choices, the choices are overall boring, some useful, mostly unsatisfying imo, and directed towards priests. Perhaps that is something I faulted on, that I should have mentioned priests in the title. I dont know about healing druids (in reference to your comment on them), nor do I play one. If druids having something against their current changes, let them blog. I was merely commenting on PRIESTS ONLY, no one else.

Well, you are also only commenting on level 85 priests who are running DS. Not priests who PvP. Not priests who are only running 5-mans. Not priests who are level anything-but-85.

As such, why should it be surprising that there is a "Best" spec for a single, very narrow, niche? As others have mentioned, the intent is to swap out glyphs/talents depending on context, not make it such that any combination is equally good at any time.
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08/30/2012 09:41 AMPosted by Elethia
If he isn't, you should get back 81k mana at 90 (at least I did with mine), per 3 minutes (he's on a 3m CD now), or 27k per minute. If you're getting back 2.1k mana per Solace hit, which you will at 90, that still means 10 Solace casts or 14.1 seconds of casting (at 1.41 second cast time, which will vary)—essentially 1/4 of your time.


Sorry Elethia, but you made a fatal error:

Assuming your calculations for the mana returns of SF and MB, and given your posted values do not reflect the return values of MB.....that is doubtful, I will use a hit to percentage based calculation:
Hits:
0%: 11 hits / 8 hits
14.49%: 12 hits / 9 hits
40.09%: 14 hits / 11 hits
Percentage returns:
0%: 14.3%, or 42.9% per 3m / 24% / 18.9% diff
14.49%: 15.6% or 46.8% per 3m / 27% / 19.8% diff
40.09%: 18.2%, or 54.6% per 3m / 33% / 21.6% diff

For Solace to meet the needed mana return to match MB:
0%: 27 casts over 3m, or 9 per min
14.49%: 28 casts over 3m, or 9-10 per min
40.09%: 31 casts over 3m, or 10-11 per min

With the given haste values, that is:
0%: 1.5s cast time, 13.5 seconds casting PW:Sol
14.49%: 1.3s cast time, 13 seconds casting PW:Sol
40.09%: 1.065s cast time, 11.715 seconds casting PW:Sol

As you can see, PW:Sol improves Geometrically with haste at the Percentage level. Now granted, I am not saying it is the best choice, however, it is not as terrible as you are making it out to be, and it will depend Greatly on the fight at hand whether or not it is used, but it will likely have little impact on discs burst potential at all when you factor in SS and AA.
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85 Draenei Priest
14060
08/30/2012 09:51 AMPosted by Demadex
The ONLY thing I complaining about is the lack of choice, hense the post title. I liked to be able to choose that if I didnt want a specific talent, I could talent else where. The places where they did give choices, the choices are overall boring, some useful, mostly unsatisfying imo, and directed towards priests. Perhaps that is something I faulted on, that I should have mentioned priests in the title. I dont know about healing druids (in reference to your comment on them), nor do I play one. If druids having something against their current changes, let them blog. I was merely commenting on PRIESTS ONLY, no one else.


There was a *one* all purpose Holy spec and *two* Disc specs variants. How often did you *need* to switch from Atonement to SoS or vice versa? In T14, you'll be able to swap Glyphs, Talents *and* reforge without going back to town. How exactly are your options going down?

08/30/2012 09:51 AMPosted by Demadex
Question...where am I EVER on the move in DS where this would happen? I honestly cant pick out ONE place where someone had WS and needed a fast hard single target heal that i couldnt provide. I can easily stop, cast and continue on my way, all mechanics carried out appropriately. And your comment about PoM, there are PLENTY of times where PoM is out of charges and still on CD (during cataclysm, during black phase on Zon'ozz, during aoe on spine). Statements like this make me wonder if you actually play a priest.


Dragon Soul hasn't been relevant content in a long time, and odds that we get another raid like it are fairly slim. Most fights require movement. Any talent, glyph or skill that help you while on the move should be highly valued. As far as PoM goes, of course it's situational, you wouldn't have to choose to glyph it or not if one of the two option was always better. But you imply that glyphing PoM is always worse, which is completely wrong (even on "aura fights" the +60% healing can help tank healing quite a bit).
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90 Night Elf Priest
13490
As you can see, PW:Sol improves Geometrically with haste at the Percentage level. Now granted, I am not saying it is the best choice, however, it is not as terrible as you are making it out to be, and it will depend Greatly on the fight at hand whether or not it is used, but it will likely have little impact on discs burst potential at all when you factor in SS and AA.


To be honest, all the numbers you tossed at me make no sense to me; I'm not a mathematician. My math is very simple, and the product of tests in game. Would you mind specifically saying what my fatal error was, because my numbers (specifically the level 85 numbers, but my 90 numbers are also pulled directly from the game, rather than from a piece of paper), were vetted by someone else—someone who has made a habit of drawing up spreadsheets for just about everything related to his class.

I also specifically stated that the numbers were for a very specific haste level in my 90 testing—one that set Solace's cast time at 1.41.
Edited by Elethia on 8/30/2012 5:24 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I'm...hmm.

I just did testing myself at 85 with 18% Haste. I'm seeing a difference of only ~24k between Mindbender and Shadowfiend over the course of a fight. That's only ~35 casts of Solace over 5 minutes.

So, I mean, what that says to me is that if we get fights with periods where not a lot of damage is going out, and we're not doing anything else, Solace will be the talent to pick. And any fights where we have to be overly mobile, or simply won't have the time to stop and weave Solace, we'll pick up Mindbender.
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08/30/2012 04:54 PMPosted by Elethia
As you can see, PW:Sol improves Geometrically with haste at the Percentage level. Now granted, I am not saying it is the best choice, however, it is not as terrible as you are making it out to be, and it will depend Greatly on the fight at hand whether or not it is used, but it will likely have little impact on discs burst potential at all when you factor in SS and AA.


To be honest, all the numbers you tossed at me make no sense to me; I'm not a mathematician. My math is very simple, and the product of tests in game. Would you mind specifically saying what my fatal error was, because my numbers (specifically the level 85 numbers, but my 90 numbers are also pulled directly from the game, rather than from a piece of paper), were vetted by someone else—someone who has made a habit of drawing up spreadsheets for just about everything related to his class.

I also specifically stated that the numbers were for a very specific haste level in my 90 testing—one that set Solace's cast time at 1.41.


Its called a percentile relationship; if something is 5% of X, then X is doubled, that something doesn't suddenly become 10%, it stays 5%, but is now 5% of that new value for X. Your fatal error was that you used a combination of techniques(percentile and absolute values) to get your result, and the outcome was highly conflicted; for example:
Your first value for MB at 0% haste, 14610, does not conform to the system from which MB operates off of, all of its results should be a equal factor of 1.3% of your total mana, whether that be 100k, 1mil or 100mil, it should all boil down to a whole number when divided by 1.3% of your total mana; you numbers do not, so either you had something added to those numbers, that were not added to the SF and Solace numbers, or you calculated them incorrectly.

It is akin to saying X is 100, Y is 5% of X, then you double X, and also the percentage Y is based from, but don't acknowledge it, saying the new Y is 20 when it is not.

As to the haste Values you posted, I used them for my numbers as well, the difference being my numbers conform to the Standards of the functions of the spells in question, rather than a circumstantial conclusion.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10945
So your complaint is that... you made choices. That were based on your play style.

Hey, I will NEVER take Angelic Barrier. Its Desperate Prayer for me all the way. This is an actual choice.

I prefer FDCL to Mindbender. Oops. I guess this is really inconvenient to your whole, "there's no CHOICES here!" argument.

I'm taking Angelic Feather instead of B&S. How often do you honestly need a shield AND a speed boost at the exact same time and NEVER want them seperately? I can smack the stupid DPS in the face with this spell if I want to.

But yeah. If you totally ignore 5 of the 6 talent choices (the 6th being tier 1), this is even more cookie cutter than before. At least, in Soviet Russia.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13490
08/30/2012 10:02 PMPosted by Kitsueie
I prefer FDCL to Mindbender. Oops. I guess this is really inconvenient to your whole, "there's no CHOICES here!" argument.


Well, preferring something doesn't make it better. If you need more mana regen, and one talent provides more than the other, the better "choice" is the one giving you more of what you need.

@Oldwolfe:

I'm not certain how many times I have to tell you: these are numbers pulled directly from tests within the game. My calculations (they are hardly even that, considering I hard tested everything) are based entirely off of the numbers I received in game. Over multiple tests I received: 14610 mana back from my Mind Bender at 0% (and 6.87% Haste, for that matter); 16071/16070 at 14.49% Haste; 18992/18993 at 40.09%.

The percentages don't even matter, because the math I used was all raw numbers. The Haste percentage was simply my recording what level of Haste I had for each of the returns I tested.

I'll even go in right now and test everything again. If I come up with something different, then the only conclusion I have is that there was an error in game the first three or four times I tested, or Blizzard changed something from when I tested it a few days ago.
Edited by Elethia on 8/31/2012 4:34 PM PDT
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85 Draenei Paladin
6625
08/31/2012 04:15 PMPosted by Elethia
I'll even go in right now and test everything again


Don't forget to get dressed when you're finished, silly naked elf.
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