[Guardian] - MoP Tanking Guide (5.4)

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85 Night Elf Druid
7905
Players like Arielle are why our forums are better than other classes.

/flexCollectiveAmazingness


This is a little off-topic, but just to underscore this point: a couple years ago (shortly after WotLK) I switched from this toon to a holy priest as my main. One of the things I missed the most was the awesome druid community, which surprised me. I just assumed there would be a wealth of really great resources out there for all classes, but as it turns out I'd been spoiled by my experience with the druid community. That's also one of the reasons I'm really glad to be using my druid as my main again.
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90 Troll Druid
9830
sombody alredy did the shadow heroic bosses like ultra or warlord..need to know how was it ???
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85 Night Elf Druid
7010
question with mastery working how it works now live should we be stacking more mastery to reach a higher armor value? Or should our main focus should still be on Agil?

I might tonight re gem everything into mastery to see if its viable but wanted to get every one's opinion first

Re-Gemmed mastery and i only jumped from 70% to 71% armor. plus i felt rage starved at times. So i Re-gemmed back to agil and had no rage issues.
Edited by Kåiuid on 8/30/2012 6:55 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
8955
So...
Treants are 100% useless, basically? They're no good on trash because they all attack and taunt the same target that you're on, and they're no good on bosses because they flat out don't work.

Trying out on target dummies it seems like kitty form deals equivalent (if not slightly low) damage to bear form with 0 vengeance using maul. So unless kitty form preserves rage, I see no point to it except when you want to run somewhere or use stealth. Sigh.

Bear hug looks like a "hit it any time you don't need to move" button. Well, as long as you have a global free.

There's, what? One or two glyphs that are useable and even then only situationally?

Is there good news?
Edited by Jashiliter on 8/30/2012 6:21 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Druid
7010
treants are not useless in fact i was using them in 5mans for bosses that could be taunted and they worked fine. They do the exact same as army of the dead and if bosses can be taunted by army they can be taunted by our treants. I didnt look to see how much health they had so i cant get into if its really really worth it or not, but i really like turning into a super bear (incarnation) for the visual appeal as well as a good rage source. And i as much as i miss switching to kitty to do a little more dps i dont think people should take it to heart. It was fun being a class when tanking wasn't needed we could do some dps, but now if i can dps just as good has a mean growling bear that can pull doors off unsuspecting cars, then by all rights id rather be a bear. Besides its only day 3 and in the next exp. end game material who knows maybe the mechanics of fights will require or push us to use kitty form to maneuver things.

The good news? Bear tanking is actually fun. its no longer a giant meat bag that swipes the air looking like its try to knock a fly down.
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90 Tauren Druid
13085
Morchok
  • Talents: Feline Swiftness or Wild Charge
  • FS allows you to move faster to the red explodey ball things (I forget what they are right now), whereas Wild Charge allows you to easily escape the goo phase.

    Wild Charge would get you back to the boss faster after the goo phase. I guess if you aren't going to stay in and fight, you can go caster form to Wild Charge to a raid member who's already in the safe zone? If you're in bear form, you can only Wild Charge to enemy targets. I obviously don't tank DS on this toon (just on my pally), so I'm not sure how going caster form would affect that part of the fight. I've never seen any feral druids shift out of form for goo phase before, but I suppose they haven't had a reason to.
    Edited by Candescently on 8/30/2012 7:09 PM PDT
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    CFT
    10670
    08/30/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Kåiuid
    question with mastery working how it works now live should we be stacking more mastery to reach a higher armor value? Or should our main focus should still be on Agil?

    Depends on your goal. I stack Crit because I can get away with it. Stick with gemming Agility and reforging to Dodge if your main goal is survivability.

    08/30/2012 06:20 PMPosted by Jashiliter
    Treants are 100% useless, basically?

    I honestly meant to test them tonight, but from what I've read they're pretty useless. Don't even bother.

    08/30/2012 06:20 PMPosted by Jashiliter
    Trying out on target dummies it seems like kitty form deals equivalent (if not slightly low) damage to bear form with 0 vengeance using maul. So unless kitty form preserves rage, I see no point to it except when you want to run somewhere or use stealth. Sigh.

    There's no reason to use it in HDS since practically every fight has at least some kind of AoE damage.

    08/30/2012 06:20 PMPosted by Jashiliter
    There's, what? One or two glyphs that are useable and even then only situationally?

    I dunno, I'd glyph SI almost all the time. FR is purely a math question. Maul is meh because Maul is meh. Ursoc is situational. Rebirth is still good. Grace is amazing.

    Wild Charge would get you back to the boss faster after the goo phase. I guess if you aren't going to stay in and fight, you can go caster form to Wild Charge to a raid member who's already in the safe zone? If you're in bear form, you can only Wild Charge to enemy targets. I obviously don't tank DS on this toon (just on my pally), so I'm not sure how going caster form would affect that part of the fight. I've never seen any feral druids shift out of form for goo phase before, but I suppose they haven't had a reason to.

    Eh, it was mostly speculation. It's better to just pop SI / Incarnation and sit in it for massive Vengeance.
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    90 Troll Druid
    14410

    Depends on your goal. I stack Crit because I can get away with it. Stick with gemming Agility and reforging to Dodge if your main goal is survivability.
    .


    What do you mean by "get away with it"? How do you determine at what point you can move to stacking crit over dodge?

    Also, wouldnt stacking crit be buffing your AM anyway, since the more you crit the more RPS you get and therefore more juice for FR/SD?
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    CFT
    10670
    08/30/2012 09:14 PMPosted by Hisora
    What do you mean by "get away with it"? How do you determine at what point you can move to stacking crit over dodge?

    Full BiS heroic gear with decent healers.

    08/30/2012 09:14 PMPosted by Hisora
    Also, wouldnt stacking crit be buffing your AM anyway, since the more you crit the more RPS you get and therefore more juice for FR/SD?

    Yes.
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    90 Tauren Druid
    11070
    So...
    Treants are 100% useless, basically? They're no good on trash because they all attack and taunt the same target that you're on, and they're no good on bosses because they flat out don't work.

    Trying out on target dummies it seems like kitty form deals equivalent (if not slightly low) damage to bear form with 0 vengeance using maul. So unless kitty form preserves rage, I see no point to it except when you want to run somewhere or use stealth. Sigh.

    Bear hug looks like a "hit it any time you don't need to move" button. Well, as long as you have a global free.

    There's, what? One or two glyphs that are useable and even then only situationally?

    Is there good news?


    I wouldn't say useless, bosses can still be taunted, just specific spells such as impale won't hit pets so they cant do anything about that. they still do a bit of extra dmg but not as much as incarnation.

    In my opinion bearhug is really useless for pve. I tried it the other day on a sapper and it just kept running. and when actively tanking a boss you do more dmg and generate more rage with your normal mangle refresh rotation. AND you get to use savage defense. so you probably don't want to use bear hug for tanking...at all...you may as well throw it off of your bar along with maul.

    You're right, most glyphs are either useless or situational. I got stampeding roar and innervate just for the heck of it, but, survival glyph is VERY good for madness...and it doesn't really hurt to have it on every other encounter. 6 seconds is plenty enough for all boss mechanics except for maybe yor'saj. but I find that I survive jsut fine with the glyph anyways so I keep it on for all encounters.

    question with mastery working how it works now live should we be stacking more mastery to reach a higher armor value? Or should our main focus should still be on Agil?

    I might tonight re gem everything into mastery to see if its viable but wanted to get every one's opinion first

    Re-Gemmed mastery and i only jumped from 70% to 71% armor. plus i felt rage starved at times. So i Re-gemmed back to agil and had no rage issues.


    Personally, I've been stacking stam since before the patch and it has worked fine for me. It is still working pretty good imo. I'm currently @ 251k health in bear form unbuffed. ~21% dodge(about 5% lower than agi Druids with similar gear). Threat and atk pwr doesn't matter much cuz of vengence, and the only thing I'm suffering is about my 29% crit (caster form, on armory)which is about 10% lower than Arielle's. However, I don't find myself running short on rage much and it feels like that I am still critting plenty. If I start at 100 rage, I am able to keep up my savage defense for 4 or so appilcations before I have down time due to lack of rage. I think being hit and exp capped helps alot since your white swings generate rage also.

    I found the same thing as you did with mastery, it seems ditching the stat entirely won't end up effecting your DR much at all. my 1k mastery rating only gives me 17.66% bonus armor. and thats still only about 71% DR in the end.

    I recently reforged some mastery and dodge away to get expertise capped. overall I suffered almost a 0% armor loss and 0.8% dodge loss from gaining 6% expertise in order to reach the cap. In my opinion, I don't think dodge or mastery rating is going to be significantly impacting your survivability at all.

    So basically in short, I think you should get hit and exp capped to help with rage generation, and then reforge for dodge or crit or mastery...all secondary stats are about the same in the end in my opinion. as for main stats, I think agi or stam would both work fine. pick one or the other.
    Edited by Thornykitty on 8/31/2012 6:38 PM PDT
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    85 Night Elf Druid
    7905
    I found the same thing as you did with mastery, it seems ditching the stat entirely won't end up effecting your DR much at all. my 1k mastery rating only gives me 17.66% bonus armor. and thats still only about 71% DR in the end.

    I recently reforged some mastery and dodge away to get expertise capped. overall I suffered almost a 0% armor loss and 0.8% dodge loss from gaining 6% expertise in order to reach the cap. In my opinion, I don't think dodge or mastery rating is going to be significantly impacting your survivability at all.


    I think this probably gets into relative stat values. That is, if you've got a lot of armor and dodge just from having a high gear level, I think the value you're going to get from more mastery and dodge is going to be limited, while someone with a more pedestrian gear level would still get considerable value from mastery and dodge, relative to expertise.

    I could be wrong, but if that's true, then while ditching the stat entirely may not end up effecting your DR much, it's not necessarily true that you can generalize that statement.
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    CFT
    10670
    08/31/2012 12:30 PMPosted by Marx
    I think this probably gets into relative stat values. That is, if you've got a lot of armor and dodge just from having a high gear level, I think the value you're going to get from more mastery and dodge is going to be limited, while someone with a more pedestrian gear level would still get considerable value from mastery and dodge, relative to expertise.

    Everyone's forgetting about Dodge and Armor suppression relative to higher level enemies.
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    90 Tauren Druid
    11070


    I think this probably gets into relative stat values. That is, if you've got a lot of armor and dodge just from having a high gear level, I think the value you're going to get from more mastery and dodge is going to be limited, while someone with a more pedestrian gear level would still get considerable value from mastery and dodge, relative to expertise.

    I could be wrong, but if that's true, then while ditching the stat entirely may not end up effecting your DR much, it's not necessarily true that you can generalize that statement.


    Because mastery gives you bonus % over your total armor, I would think that with higher lvl gear you get more armor, thus each point of mastery would give you more bonus armor compared to using lower lvl gear. If I find the changes to be miniscule, I expect a lower lvl geared individual to see even less.

    Also, higher lvl gear has relatively higher stat values. I'll theory craft a mastery comparison of a 384 raid finder gear to a 410 heroic piece of the same loot. For example, if you have 200 mastery on the 384 piece and 300 mastery on the 410 piece, if you reforge the mastery away into dodge because you are neglecting mastery entirely, you'd lose 80 mastery from the 384 piece and 120 mastery from the 410 piece.

    As you can see, changing particular stats becomes more appearant and drastic as gear lvl rises. and not the other way around.

    As for relationship of reforging mastery, dodge, and expertise ratings, I'm pretty sure the % gain is linear proportional to the rating value, and that it does not dilute as it gets higher like the 4.3 resilience. Reforging mastery and/or dodge ratings into expertise gives you the same linear results no matter what lvl gear you are using. Each point of mastery and/or dodge given will give you the same amount of exp in return. granted, you might need to reforge more rating to achieve cap because your exp% will be lower to begin with wearing lower lvl gear.

    P.S. I am assuming when you say "value" you mean hard fact numbers and not relative desirability. Cuz if you are referring to desirability, then you may be right and can go ahead and disregard my rambling.


    Everyone's forgetting about Dodge and Armor suppression relative to higher level enemies.


    I only used the dodge and armor DR % the game/armory tells me because its readily available and easy to grab and compare. I understand that going against a higher lvl mob will decrease both % values after supression, but as far as I can tell, both supression behavior is linear and non-exponential. wouldn't a change in either values before supression reflect in similar manners after supression.
    Edited by Thornykitty on 8/31/2012 6:35 PM PDT
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    6515
    I'm just testing it out but, Nature's swiftness seems pretty good. You can use it for all sorts of things but if you use it on Healing Touch I am getting at least 45-50k instant heals and if it crits it heals for twice that. It should scale with gear too because we get agil to count for our heals.
    And, it's only a 1 minute cd.
    Edited by Kerrison on 9/1/2012 10:05 AM PDT
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    CFT
    10670
    I'm just testing it out but, Nature's swiftness seems pretty good. You can use it for all sorts of things but if you use it on Healing Touch I am getting at least 45-50k instant heals and if it crits it heals for twice that. It should scale with gear too because we get agil to count for our heals.
    And, it's only a 1 minute cd.

    NS is probably better if you're looking at overall usage. It just requires more skill / better timing than Renewal does to get optimal use out of it.
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    90 Draenei Shaman
    11495
    Should I stack crit now, or stay dodge? it seems my dodge on my gear, doesn't really add very much chance to dodge...so idk if it's really needed
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    CFT
    10670
    09/01/2012 09:25 PMPosted by Nîghtfall
    Should I stack crit now, or stay dodge? it seems my dodge on my gear, doesn't really add very much chance to dodge...so idk if it's really needed

    Dodge is better TDR. Crit is just Rage generation and DPS. If you don't need more Dodge/Mastery, then go Crit.
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    85 Tauren Druid
    5435
    At the start of beta, Dodge had a TDR of 3x more than Mastery. Since then they have buffed Mastery (and nerfed Dodge somewhat), and last I checked ~2 months ago, Dodge was about 20% better than Mastery.

    Now, TDR isn't the only measure of tanking stats, a lot of people like to look at EHP (and/or TTL) too. While EHP was the best measure in WOTLK, it wasn't so important in Cataclysm yet it is something that comes up occasionally (hello Impale), so EHP isn't something that we should totally ignore.

    Now, Guardian mastery is the ONLY stat (besides armor) that grants TDR, EHP and TTL. Dodge does nothing for your EHP. Stamina does nothing for your TDR (or it may now that FR scales with AP?).

    So I believe that ditching Dodge in favor of Mastery is a viable move. You lose a little TDR, but you gain lots of EHP that Dodge does not provide.

    Ditching Dodge and Mastery in favor of Crit is also viable. You lose some TDR, but you gain lots of DPS, which neither Dodge or Mastery provides.

    3 viable ways to stat out your Guardian Druid. Don't let anyone tell you that their way is better than your way as long as you stick with one of these 3. Must be nice to be a Guardian Druid this expansion, too bad I won't be joining in the fun.
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    14175
    I'm just testing it out but, Nature's swiftness seems pretty good. You can use it for all sorts of things but if you use it on Healing Touch I am getting at least 45-50k instant heals and if it crits it heals for twice that. It should scale with gear too because we get agil to count for our heals.
    And, it's only a 1 minute cd.

    NS is probably better if you're looking at overall usage. It just requires more skill / better timing than Renewal does to get optimal use out of it.


    have to remember to use NS before you use HT while tanking.

    although of course we would never - ever - ever make that mistake

    <Wisp hits HT .. pops into caster .. Zonazz hits .. Wisp goes*splat* .. >
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    CFT
    10670
    09/02/2012 02:50 AMPosted by Tangedyn
    (or it may now that FR scales with AP?).

    it increases the floor, but that's it. However the floor isn't something that's particularly relevant when tanking a raid boss.

    09/02/2012 02:50 AMPosted by Tangedyn
    3 viable ways to stat out your Guardian Druid. Don't let anyone tell you that their way is better than your way as long as you stick with one of these 3.

    Well, the only people that have significant influence over the choice are your healers.

    Mastery and Crit also have the advantage of being shared with Feral, making spec swaps easier (if they happen at all).
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